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Bullet Runout Issues - Help!

After replacing the FL bushing die and start using Forster custom FL die neck honed to .3345" , my runout problem decreased drastically. (308 Winchester rifle, .341" neck)
 
I know that when I turned some once fired Peterson 6.5CM brass, I needed to take out .0015 to get the low spots out, were a couple that were deeper, I left them in there, just really tiny spots, maybe another .0005. You say you sorted new brass to -.001 without turning them, makes me a hair skeptical , to a point, as more than that in thickness variations isn't uncommon, along with some ID's that aren't centered in the neck, so to speak. I shot that brass once to let the pressure do some of the work in flattening out the neck material for me. It's an ongoing experiment, probably try it next on twice from new fired to see what difference there may be.
As to measuring the runout, I am in the camp of turning the case in the die as you go, and not using the sizing button, I use bushings or mandrels depending on my mood that day. Haven't made up my mind on std die neck and mandrels vs bushings yet either, as to runout. It depends on the gun for me, as to how far I am willing to go, to get below about .0025 with unturned brass, allowing for .001 on the brass and .001 on the bullet alignment and I allow something like .0005 for the stackup on measuring tools too. Any time I can maintain below .002, I'm pretty happy with it. Not willing to go any further for a hunting gun. Not like a person can pick out a particular hair at 50, alone 400 or more yds, and hit it, Mr Wind generally has some input on that, and so do your nerves. Think Cortina has demonstrated that pretty thoroughly with the 1 shot challenge. All said and done, it is up to your expectations and OCD level.
 
cjc5062 said:
Hi all, so I’ve completely gone off the deep end the last few months with precision hand loading. I don’t shoot PRS or anything, but do go out west to hunt every year and shoot often. I enjoy trying to get the most precise loads and accuracy out of my hunting rifles and am just trying to learn as much as possible. I’m focused on 6.5 PRC and 7 PRC at the moment.

In the last few months I have completely upgraded my reloading set up. I’m now running the following setup: Area 419 Zero 2 Press, Area 419 Full Length Micrometer Sizing Dies, Short Action Customs Infinity Arbor Seating Die, Amp Mark II Annealer, Amp Press, Henderson Trimmer, Primal Rights Primer, Ingenuity Precision Powder Trickler with Sartorius Scale, Mitutoyo calipers, Mitutoyo micrometer, Area 419 comparator set, Area 419 Powder Funnel and tube extensions, Accuracy One Concentricity Guage with Mitutoyo dial, and other odds and ends items. I have not yet purchased an Autodod case neck turner, but it has crossed my mind.

I have watched just about every video I can out there, including Primal Rights, Ultimate Reloader, Bolt Action Reloading, F-Class John, etc. and have tried my best to use the same processes in start to finish reloading. I’m currently using new Peterson Brass (sorted to .005” - <.001” neck concentricity), anneal first, then trim/chamfer, brush inside of the neck with nylon brush, powder charge, seat bullet.

I have been able to get down to very good Standard Deviations in my loads (some as low as 3 fps Standard Deviation for 3 shot groups), but cannot for the life of me get consistent or acceptable bullet runout. I’m using Berger Elite Hunter bullets in 140gr. for 6.5 PRC and 175gr. for 7PRC. I take my measurement of bullet runout halfway between the neck of the case and end of the bearing surface (before bullet starts to angle down). My bullet runout measurements range anywhere from .002” to .008”. With the quality of components and tools I’m using, I’m really hoping to get the runout to around .0005” but at this point would take anything less than .002”. I think I may have narrowed this issue to a few things, but would like to get other’s thoughts before I go trying other things:

  1. Short Action Customs Seating Die – I’ve heard mixed reviews on the SAC Infinity Die, in that there is too much movement since it is made for any caliber. Thinking of trying Micron dies or anything else that is highly recommended for precision.
  2. Henderson Trimmer – The pilot on the Henderson trimmer, while it doesn’t seem to do much to the inside of the neck when trimming/chamfering, I know Primal Rights states the pilot trimmers can impact seating. Although, I know this trimmer is highly regarded by many and used without issue.
  3. Change the lubrication for sizing – I currently use Hornady One Shot for lubrication, but this does not necessary get inside the neck well. I’ve heard many shooters using imperial wax as the main lubrication of choice.
  4. Neck turning – I have not yet purchased a neck turner, although I’m considering an Autodod. However, in watching various videos, I know getting <.002” bullet runout is very doable without neck turning.
Please let me know if there is anything that stands out to anyone, or if there is something I’m not thinking of. I know bullet runout may not impact accuracy all that much, but its more about the pursuit of trying to get the most out of my loads. It’s also just driving me absolutely crazy lol
Click to expand...
What is the neck thickness ? What is the neck run out after resizing ?
 
Sized in the same die without the expander and carefully expanded up with a mandrel and die, with lube. And your seating die needs to be made with same chamber reamer and a Wilson stem seater . If you really want low runout numbers.
 
Bill Norris said:
Really? Erik Cortina one of the top F-class shooters did a test awhile back with .015 runout at 1000 yds. and as he discussed the test he claimed he could see no difference in groups.
Click to expand...
Same for F Class John.. He has a video about that very subject…. Conclusion was it is just not that critical…
The poster claims to have watched FC John, that video is certainly in his extensive collection!
Deep Breath and just carry on loading as carefully as you can and for hunting especially and even on bench, virtually no one can tell if there is .001” runout or .010”…
Here is FC John’s video on the subject:
 
You received a well balanced recipe for dealing with your problem from forum members with cumulative experience of 500 years in reloading. My limited experience tells me that runout’s impact on accuracy is not critical for F-class. My runout is usually 2- 3 and I don’t turn necks. There is a hornady tool to deal with that, but I don’t consider it an issue. Wind and mirage is my problem. Not runout.
 
cjc5062 said:
Hi all, so I’ve completely gone off the deep end the last few months with precision hand loading. I don’t shoot PRS or anything, but do go out west to hunt every year and shoot often. I enjoy trying to get the most precise loads and accuracy out of my hunting rifles and am just trying to learn as much as possible. I’m focused on 6.5 PRC and 7 PRC at the moment.

In the last few months I have completely upgraded my reloading set up. I’m now running the following setup: Area 419 Zero 2 Press, Area 419 Full Length Micrometer Sizing Dies, Short Action Customs Infinity Arbor Seating Die, Amp Mark II Annealer, Amp Press, Henderson Trimmer, Primal Rights Primer, Ingenuity Precision Powder Trickler with Sartorius Scale, Mitutoyo calipers, Mitutoyo micrometer, Area 419 comparator set, Area 419 Powder Funnel and tube extensions, Accuracy One Concentricity Guage with Mitutoyo dial, and other odds and ends items. I have not yet purchased an Autodod case neck turner, but it has crossed my mind.

I have watched just about every video I can out there, including Primal Rights, Ultimate Reloader, Bolt Action Reloading, F-Class John, etc. and have tried my best to use the same processes in start to finish reloading. I’m currently using new Peterson Brass (sorted to .005” - <.001” neck concentricity), anneal first, then trim/chamfer, brush inside of the neck with nylon brush, powder charge, seat bullet.

I have been able to get down to very good Standard Deviations in my loads (some as low as 3 fps Standard Deviation for 3 shot groups), but cannot for the life of me get consistent or acceptable bullet runout. I’m using Berger Elite Hunter bullets in 140gr. for 6.5 PRC and 175gr. for 7PRC. I take my measurement of bullet runout halfway between the neck of the case and end of the bearing surface (before bullet starts to angle down). My bullet runout measurements range anywhere from .002” to .008”. With the quality of components and tools I’m using, I’m really hoping to get the runout to around .0005” but at this point would take anything less than .002”. I think I may have narrowed this issue to a few things, but would like to get other’s thoughts before I go trying other things:

  1. Short Action Customs Seating Die – I’ve heard mixed reviews on the SAC Infinity Die, in that there is too much movement since it is made for any caliber. Thinking of trying Micron dies or anything else that is highly recommended for precision.
  2. Henderson Trimmer – The pilot on the Henderson trimmer, while it doesn’t seem to do much to the inside of the neck when trimming/chamfering, I know Primal Rights states the pilot trimmers can impact seating. Although, I know this trimmer is highly regarded by many and used without issue.
  3. Change the lubrication for sizing – I currently use Hornady One Shot for lubrication, but this does not necessary get inside the neck well. I’ve heard many shooters using imperial wax as the main lubrication of choice.
  4. Neck turning – I have not yet purchased a neck turner, although I’m considering an Autodod. However, in watching various videos, I know getting <.002” bullet runout is very doable without neck turning.
Please let me know if there is anything that stands out to anyone, or if there is something I’m not thinking of. I know bullet runout may not impact accuracy all that much, but its more about the pursuit of trying to get the most out of my loads. It’s also just driving me absolutely crazy lol
Click to expand...
You cannot make a hunting rifle shoot like a BR rifle by throwing money at it.. You need to understand what's good enough to get the job done. You have too much money invested in things that don't improve the hunting experience. You have at least 10 times more money invested in equipment than I have and my rifles are very accurate for hunting GH. You never mentioned group size your getting. The only thing I measure is group size, trim length and bump. 55 year old scale and powder measure.
 
William Vogel said:
I think I’m understanding that you took new unfired brass, annealed it and resized it? If yes, I don’t know why you did this step. You should fire form all the new brass before any sizing except possibly overall length trimming and chamfering the necks.
Click to expand...
New brass should be sized - then fire formed. You don’t trim before sizing or fire forming. Doing so you will end up with short case depending on chamber.
Whatever - chamfering should be done - flash hole inside cleaned up.

For hunting - size to SAAMI specs. Too many folk spend time on forums reading reloading matter that apply to Benchrest - F Class - PRS. That does not work for factory gun and almost never make a iota of difference on target. Developing a load with a proper powder & components and taking time to test for the best powder charge will do more than anything for the required precision in a hunting rifle.
 
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As mentioned all these fancy, expensive dies as of late just part you with your money. Really nothing more. You need to be methodical in your approach to figure this out. And do not buy an AutoDod as this is barking up the wrong tree as well. Shoot your brass to let the chamber straighten it out first of all. Do not anneal. Run a nylon brush inside the case neck, just in and out, period. Resize in die, preferably a bushing die of some type with no expander ball. Check case run out at this point. If there is a problem, stop and figure it out before moving forward. Quality brass is a bonus at this point. If all is good, seat bullet in some type of inline seating die. If your loaded round is not .002 runout or less, you missed something. The point of all this, is to analyze your process, step by step. This process, if done correctly, will lead you right to the problem. Good luck and keep us posted.
Paul

Pm me if you want. Happy to help.
 
First prove whether or not it has any impact on precision.

When I started reloading for “serious” I got one of those gauges too. Then I spent some time talking to a BR shooter with a few records, then I tested, then I put that runout tool in a drawer and I haven’t seen it in over 10 yrs.
 
Starting with the basics, have you checked your fancy tools?
You need to come up with a “standard”, basically a rod that has less than .0005” diameter variation and runout for the same distance as the cartridge base to where you will be measuring your cartridge/bullet runout.

Then you need to check each component individually before assembly and after any step in the loading process. Also the case before and after firing. It’s really hard to straighten a piece of brass that’s been fired in a crooked chamber.

Because of the taper in most case bodies, any run out or out of round at the case head or place supported by the rear rollers, the runout at bearing surface of the bullet will be multiplied. This is why almost every concentricity gauge out there is pointless to use. If the cartridge is not spinning straight on it’s true center, it’s impossible to check if the outside diameter is true to the center line.

Think of the time spent making sure the bore of a barrel is straight before chambering or threading.

I hat to give an OCD, ADHD kind of guy more things to check and lose sleep over, but until you know your tools are precise, there is no way to no if what they measure is precise.
 
Just for reference.
For 223, I use LC brass with a Forster full length die, resize on a COAX, seat on a Dillon 550 with Forster seating dies. My cartridge runout has always been between .001 and 0 on the Hornady runout gauge. At first I would test 25 cartridges. When I found all cartridges were between .001 and 0, I periodically tested 10. After no changes in test results, I would test 2-3 at greater and greater intervals. In the past 5-7 years the runout gauge hasn't been touched.
I found no difference with dry lube inside necks when seating.
I never annealed.
I've resized over 50,000 cases.
 
XTR said:
First prove whether or not it has any impact on precision.

When I started reloading for “serious” I got one of those gauges too. Then I spent some time talking to a BR shooter with a few records, then I tested, then I put that runout tool in a drawer and I haven’t seen it in over 10 yrs.
Click to expand...
My first test in a decent but definitely not precision AR15 barrel Ii segregated 50 XM193 rounds at .005 and over and .004 and under.
Did it twice and both showed better results with less runout.

I have since repeated that with my 6BRA
The break was .003 this time and I could discern no difference.
 
This is probably going to hurt your feelings.

You're trying to buy an outcome. Spending money doesn't guarantee results. You say you're getting a flyer every four or five rounds...something is really, really wrong with that and it isn't your runout.

I recently won a match with a clean and a 199 (dropped point was on me), and I had vertical of about 2.5" at 600. Measured runout on these rounds? Hell if I know, I just measure every couple rounds when I start a batch. I saw 0.003" and 0.005". I size and expand on a Dillon 750 with a Redding Type-S sizing die without the expander ball, a Sinclair expander mandrel, and seat bullets with a K&M arbor press. I turn necks with a hand drill and turning kit from K&M.

Stop buying what you have heard is the best tool and work on your shooting and your techniques. Don't spend $1800 on Autodod. You don't know the why yet. Additionally, you mentioned "standard deviation" on three rounds. You can't find any statistical significance with three rounds.

Learn how to walk before you learn how to run.
 
drop_point said:
This is probably going to hurt your feelings.

You're trying to buy an outcome. Spending money doesn't guarantee results. You say you're getting a flyer every four or five rounds...something is really, really wrong with that and it isn't your runout.

I recently won a match with a clean and a 199 (dropped point was on me), and I had vertical of about 2.5" at 600. Measured runout on these rounds? Hell if I know, I just measure every couple rounds when I start a batch. I saw 0.003" and 0.005". I size and expand on a Dillon 750 with a Redding Type-S sizing die without the expander ball, a Sinclair expander mandrel, and seat bullets with a K&M arbor press. I turn necks with a hand drill and turning kit from K&M.

Stop buying what you have heard is the best tool and work on your shooting and your techniques. Don't spend $1800 on Autodod. You don't know the why yet. Additionally, you mentioned "standard deviation" on three rounds. You can't find any statistical significance with three rounds.

Learn how to walk before you learn how to run.
Click to expand...
I also size on a Dillon. No idea what my runout is, but they're plenty competitive in f-class.
Something to try. Take a case thats FULLY fireformed to your chamber and measure it. Headspace, 0.200 line, and body/shoulder junction. Now size as you normally would and remeasure.
I like the 0.200 and body shoulder to size 0.0025-0.0030 and headspace 0.001-0.002. Never more. This will ensure proper case to chamber alignment. When you have that, whatever run-out you may have on the bullet will straight itself out when you close the bolt. This is how Cortina got away with grouping crooked bullets, because when he closed his bolt, all those crooked bullet because 0.001 or less runout.
Also, if you don't own a borescope, your fliers may be the result of a bit of a carbon ring. And, a bit of neck lube can eliminate flyers. Moly or graphite can help, depending on your process
 
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