Agree completely, have spent my whole career designing aircraft and gas turbine parts and that is my experience also.^^^Yessir!^^^^
The equipment matters but being done in a single setup can not be reproduced on any machine. Further, most new machines...even top of the line cnc stuff, won't hold better than a tenth or so...brand new....much less the wwII era lathe in someones basement garage.
A test fixture has standards. At worst, it should be capable of half of the claimed tolerances and 3-4x is better...and this assumes superhuman perfection from the operator that sets the part up for testing/fixturing. Tenths get tossed around like child's play in this industry. If it was child's play, you'd think companies like Haas would build a machine that is absolutely perfection, regardless of the environment it or the tools to measure it were in.
The saving grace is that most barrel and receiver work is done a short distance from the chuck and a reamer induces far less bearing and tool deflection than a typical cutting tool. There are so many variables when talking about holding .0002" or better tolerances in a production environment that it's not funny. I gave up a long time ago at trying to convince people of these things. I'll just say this, and it might make some people mad....If you're smith can guarantee .0002", you should either marry him or run away as fast as you can. You get to pick which. I did true tool and die work for a living, on top flight equipment and in a controlled environment. Mics were checked every morning and sometimes several times a day. Tip...you can't hold it in your hand checking it several times, until you get it to read what you want it to.
Truth be told, top flight gun work is rather crude by comparison. Lets say that I can true an action to absolute perfection...then sandwich a recoil lug that is .0005 or considerably worse, between the action and the perfect barrel. What was gained and how many here have measured a perfect recoil lug?
I've got the inspection report here for a brand new lathe. Brand new, straight from the factory the headstock bearings held .0002. Someone please tell me how I can claim better than the bearings that the lathe spindle runs on. Now, even if you can, please tell me how I can machine a part BETTER than the machine itself even after the part having been removed from its original setup and machined from a new setup in said machine.
Don't get me wrong...I've seen some messed up custom actions but with those, the problems were apparent.
All that said, if you want something truly to size, you polish or grind it to dimension.
Blueprinting custom actions...why?
- Thread starter Tommie
- Start date
I would expect the expensive custom action to have been produced and quality controlled to a level that the average gunsmith could not hope to achieve! It is the difference between getting a part for your Chevy versus a part for a Nuclear Submarine. If my gunsmith found a problem with an expensive custom action I would expect the OEM to make it right not my gunsmith. If they did not I would tell everyone at every meet and in every forum for the rest of my life. If the expensive action needs work I could have saved a ton of money and bought a Savage or Remington and sent it out for blue printing. The 'smith is being paid to chamber, thread, crown and mate the precision barrel to the precision action. Should he find a problem with the action things should stop right their if it is a hi end brand new custom action.
jimmymac
Jim McGregor
To be clear, my original post is in regards to BR. The expectation for that application is quite unique with the desired end results being agg's in the 1's. That's a lot to expect out of our equipment.
Just because an action is expensive doesn't mean it is capable of winning out of the box. We'd all like to think that the shiny new $1500 action is good to go and capable of shooting in the 1's from the get go, but the fact is some are and some aren't. Good BR gunsmiths can and do improve function of new actions as well as diagnose issues with "problem" actions that never quite cut the mustard for the intended application.
Choose your gunsmith wisely. They are not all created equal.
I have trued and re-barreled my fair share of rifles. Custom action rifles all leave my shop shooting sub .5" moa at 100 yards or better. I can't recall ever truing a Borden, or Kelbly action. I personally know Jim Borden and Jim Kebley, and have never seen any of their actions needing to be trued. If I had I would have returned it to them. They don't let much get around their quality control. I read this thread and have read many threads by one particular poster here (no name). If you have a custom action and your smith says it needs to be trued get a second opinion or ask the manufacture to take a look at it. There is nothing worse than having a custom action that has been ruined by a reckless would be "Gunsmith".
Alex Wheeler
Site $$ Sponsor
I think I will leave this one alone. Its best people believe what they want.
Trueing is a better term for sure. Always wondered in engine terms what blueprinting meant as it was misrepresented then as well. Balancing was the correct term but you always heard balance and blueprint. Trueing of an action and it's components has more meaning for me. I'm no gunsmith but for the sake of definition, it seems more correct. Tuning would include raceway, bolt, timing and firing pin modification to me. Again I'm sure there is more to it as I'm no expert on the subject.
True:
"Choose your gunsmith wisely. They are not all created equal" Again if the expensive custom action needs it's manufacturing finished by the gunsmith then something is wrong. If that is true then you have wasted your money on the expensive action if it can not win out of the box. Unless you have more money than brains why would you pay 2X, 3X or 4X as much for a custom action then pay to have it "re-machined". If you were a student and this sort of logic is what you tried to make a case for you would get an "F" on that paper/proof from any technical school not a liberal arts program! Even a domestic car OEM would reject such logic and that is saying something! Are you likewise suggesting that we re-machine the interior of a finished match grade barrel? Should we likewise re-manufacture our bullets once they arrive at our home?
Why do we purchase custom actions?
What is a reasonable expectation upon the purchase of a custom rifle action or any machine or machine part for that matter?
Who is responsible for the manufacture of a custom action the OEM or the Gunsmith?
When you purchase an action from an OEM has a contract been entered into by both parties?
What are the minimum requirements that all legally binding contracts must have to be enforceable?
Sadly in this case logic and the law are on my side. I am not basing my "opinion" on beliefs rather on hard concrete facts and the law. Anyone doing anything else is the opposite of prudent and reasonable. To let an OEM off the hook like that is shameful, irresponsible and a disservice to all of their fellow humans and like hobbyist! It creates a culture were kicking the part out the door is all that matter's with no accountability like 1950's through 2000 Detroit Domestic Automotive Manufactures! If what you are saying is the norm for this industry I am glad I have never put down the money for a custom action. So if you buy a finished rifle from a company that builds custom rifle actions does that mean your smith needs to take the entire rifle apart and re-machine everything?
billlarson
"Hold Into The Wind"
In 1999 I bought my first custom action... I was still working at the time and had access to a complete state of art inspection dept.for a 75,000,000.00$ per year mfg.co....having had 38 years experience in the machine & R&D end of the co.I turned my action over to my shooting buddy...he spent a few hours with some very exspensive measuring equip.All in all the action was straight and square within. 0005" T.I.R ...
Bill...
Bill...
Dusty Stevens
Shiner
Thats because it was machined in the same setup. Pretty typical
Alex, the funny thing is try and get one to say what the tolerances are they are working too ..theres a big jump $$$$$ from .001 to .0001
Lucky Shooter
Gold $$ Contributor
It kinda makes me wonder when I hear "tenths" tossed around----as Mike has referred to.
Most barrels I fit and chamber in the uncontrolled environment of my garage shoot fairly well.
I have a couple of good .0001" indicators but my limited skills on my Grizzly won't consistently
produce readings down at the .0001 to .0002" level.
I measured the thickness of a sheet of paper at .0039". Arithmetic tells me that it would take
39 sheets @ .0001" thickness to measure .0039".
I have to get real and settle for less accuracy-----for me, not much difference between a tenth and dead nuts.
Can only dream about either.
A. Weldy
Most barrels I fit and chamber in the uncontrolled environment of my garage shoot fairly well.
I have a couple of good .0001" indicators but my limited skills on my Grizzly won't consistently
produce readings down at the .0001 to .0002" level.
I measured the thickness of a sheet of paper at .0039". Arithmetic tells me that it would take
39 sheets @ .0001" thickness to measure .0039".
I have to get real and settle for less accuracy-----for me, not much difference between a tenth and dead nuts.
Can only dream about either.
A. Weldy
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I was under the impression that blueprinting was converting something to the nominal spec on a blueprint. So a diameter that's specified as 1.444 +/- 0.003 inches would be turned to 1.444 inches. How can you print something that's under nominal since that would require one to add metal?
Dusty Stevens
Shiner
Exactly
Or how can you blueprint something that no one is willing to divulge what tolerances their parts are being manufactured to....name one "custom action " which are really limited production actions not truly custom that gives tolerances they work to. there are none ZERO , that says we guarantee our actions are all straight and perpendicular to .xxxx t.i.r. Which leaves people like Alex , Dwight Scott and others to find and fix the deficiencies that occurred during the mfgering process..
Ummm...I think “blueprinting” was a term from hot rodding that meant seating bearings and such using “Prussian blue” to get perfect contact. That and balancing everything is supposed to make the engine run with less vibration etc.
Trueing an action requires measuring geometrical relationships, (co-axiality, squareness, cylindricity, perhaps others) and you really don’t care what the exact dimensions are. So it isn’t “blueprinting” in any sense.
Trueing an action requires measuring geometrical relationships, (co-axiality, squareness, cylindricity, perhaps others) and you really don’t care what the exact dimensions are. So it isn’t “blueprinting” in any sense.
Whether you call them ‘custom” or “limited production” they’re just made with better care. The big factories machine the entire action using relatively coarse cutting methods (larger feeds and depths of cut perhaps) Then they go to heat treat in large batches. Seldom are they stress relieved. So they warp.
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