Blueprinting and accuracy improvement - any proof?
- Thread starter rsilvers
- Start date
I will try to explain this in a way for you to understand. I was quoting a website of a rifle company which claimed 20 millionths of runout (I provided a link). My post was sarcasm - knowing their claims were BS and this is impossible.
[/quote]
But You bought the mike that reads to 50 millionths and felt the need to single out this attribute on this thread.
LR.....no.... 20 millionths= 0.000020
tenths/ hundredths/ thousandth/ ten thousandths/.... etc.
[/quote]
But You bought the mike that reads to 50 millionths and felt the need to single out this attribute on this thread.
LR.....no.... 20 millionths= 0.000020
tenths/ hundredths/ thousandth/ ten thousandths/.... etc.
butchlambert
Site $$ Sponsor
What is the source of your info? If what you say is true, Why do they come out like a piece of sh#t?
Butch
Butch
The proof is in the performance...
No matter the machining method the older and very newest model 700 actions appear to be the straightest actions made, between 1969 and 1979 appear to be in one class of quality and straightness. Actions made up through though 1999 were of another class of straightness. Between 2000 and 2009 there seemed to be a real dip in quality fit and finish. The last six months or so I have seen a slight improvment in qualiy of model 700s.
I have seen actions that when set up in a jig and had a straight mandrel inserted into the bolt raceway and the mandrel was alligned to run true. Then the mandrel was removed and a precision ground and threaded stub was inserted into the threads and the stub would run with .040" tir. I have seen bolt lugs engaging on only one lug and it take .040" of lug removal to get bilateral engagement, and require moving the bolt handle and retiming it so there would be primary extraction. There are a whole host of other physical, mechanical and asthetic issues that have not been addressed in this post.
If a factory action is right and has a decent barrel it will shoot pretty good. But the chances of getting it all right are pretty slim. Most factory rifles will shoot 1-1.5 moa out of the box and that is more than adequate for most who don't have high expectations for their rifle.
Getting a factory rifle to shoot .5 moa is often doable with some modification to stock, trigger, and loads.
Getting a rifle to shoot 5 shot groups sub .3 moa most often requres that a factory be trued, timed, bedded, and/or rebarreled.
Comparison:
Fifty years ago the drivers of the Datona 500 raced stock cars with straight pipes on a sand track at the beach. Today they drive highly modified cars on a asphalt track at close to 200 mph. There is no comparison to a 150 horsepower stock care to a 900 horsepower custom bodied race car.
Factory rifle expectations and custom expectations are not the same. If you are lucky enough to find a factory gun shoot as good as a custom rifle you are real lucky. I have a 3006 model 700 bought in 1975 that with 165 Sierra HPBT will shoot a sub .3 moa group at 300 yards. It is the exception no the rule.
There are many folks on this board who have spent many hard earned dollars trying to get their factory model 700s shooting as good as it can be made to do. There are many folks on this board who have made their livelyhood working on the fisrt groups rifles. There is a third group who have learned the hard way that buying a custom rifle is the better path in the long run. There is a final group who has learned how to make a better model 700 and made a business in doing so. IE: Stiller, Kelbly, Borden, Lawton, Surgeon, Pierce, Harrison, and the list goes on.
Everyone has an opinion on this subject. This is why there are shooting disciplines that now have factory classes. An yes Savage has kicked a lot of butt. My hat is off to them and what they are doing.(listening to the market) And my heart is sadden to the path Remington has taken. It appears with the economy the way it is that the parent company is following the money. Government contracts are on the horizon and Walmarts at getting out of the gun business faster and faster. A couple of years ago Walmart made up vast share of Remington Sales. Someone told me that Savage had edged Remington in the bolt action rifle market share of sales last year.
People want more bang for their buck no puns intended.
Nat Lambeth
No matter the machining method the older and very newest model 700 actions appear to be the straightest actions made, between 1969 and 1979 appear to be in one class of quality and straightness. Actions made up through though 1999 were of another class of straightness. Between 2000 and 2009 there seemed to be a real dip in quality fit and finish. The last six months or so I have seen a slight improvment in qualiy of model 700s.
I have seen actions that when set up in a jig and had a straight mandrel inserted into the bolt raceway and the mandrel was alligned to run true. Then the mandrel was removed and a precision ground and threaded stub was inserted into the threads and the stub would run with .040" tir. I have seen bolt lugs engaging on only one lug and it take .040" of lug removal to get bilateral engagement, and require moving the bolt handle and retiming it so there would be primary extraction. There are a whole host of other physical, mechanical and asthetic issues that have not been addressed in this post.
If a factory action is right and has a decent barrel it will shoot pretty good. But the chances of getting it all right are pretty slim. Most factory rifles will shoot 1-1.5 moa out of the box and that is more than adequate for most who don't have high expectations for their rifle.
Getting a factory rifle to shoot .5 moa is often doable with some modification to stock, trigger, and loads.
Getting a rifle to shoot 5 shot groups sub .3 moa most often requres that a factory be trued, timed, bedded, and/or rebarreled.
Comparison:
Fifty years ago the drivers of the Datona 500 raced stock cars with straight pipes on a sand track at the beach. Today they drive highly modified cars on a asphalt track at close to 200 mph. There is no comparison to a 150 horsepower stock care to a 900 horsepower custom bodied race car.
Factory rifle expectations and custom expectations are not the same. If you are lucky enough to find a factory gun shoot as good as a custom rifle you are real lucky. I have a 3006 model 700 bought in 1975 that with 165 Sierra HPBT will shoot a sub .3 moa group at 300 yards. It is the exception no the rule.
There are many folks on this board who have spent many hard earned dollars trying to get their factory model 700s shooting as good as it can be made to do. There are many folks on this board who have made their livelyhood working on the fisrt groups rifles. There is a third group who have learned the hard way that buying a custom rifle is the better path in the long run. There is a final group who has learned how to make a better model 700 and made a business in doing so. IE: Stiller, Kelbly, Borden, Lawton, Surgeon, Pierce, Harrison, and the list goes on.
Everyone has an opinion on this subject. This is why there are shooting disciplines that now have factory classes. An yes Savage has kicked a lot of butt. My hat is off to them and what they are doing.(listening to the market) And my heart is sadden to the path Remington has taken. It appears with the economy the way it is that the parent company is following the money. Government contracts are on the horizon and Walmarts at getting out of the gun business faster and faster. A couple of years ago Walmart made up vast share of Remington Sales. Someone told me that Savage had edged Remington in the bolt action rifle market share of sales last year.
People want more bang for their buck no puns intended.
Nat Lambeth
Yesterday I took my gun club to the Savage factory for a tour. Twenty two of us attended and we were taken on a tour in groups of five. My tour was led by the President of Savage Arms.
We were allowed to ask anything and to visit any part of the factory and witness anything we desired. Cameras were allowed.
Because I've seen dozens upon dozens of box stock Savage rifles shooting well under an inch (5 shot groups @ 100yds) and more than half of them under 3/4" and many breaking the 1/2" barrier, I had to see for myself how they did it.
My conclusion......
A passion for well maintained and calibrated machinery, even though some of it is well older than anyone on this board!
A zero tolerance for poor raw materials.
An extreme low "use" count on the drills, reamers, buttons, cutting tools.
A very simple design;
Drilled, reamed and button rifled barrels
Toggle head bolt
Adjustable firing pin
Barrel nut assuring excellent head space (Watching an action/barrel headspaced is a beautiful example of simplicity and low torque)
Maybe the best factory trigger in the industry
Test,Test,Test.........All along assembly the amount of testing is quite impressive. "They are too small to have a problem and have to stop a whole line "
Pictures here:
http://public.fotki.com/Rbertalotto/bang!/savage-factory-tour/
Box stock Savage rifles in the $500 range have customarily broken 15 grade "A" Large chicken eggs at 200 yds with fifteen shots. In 16 years I've not seen a Remington do this. The only other "stock" rifle to ever do this is a Cooper.
Do a search on this here internet for reviews on the new Savage EDGE rifle that lists at $379 with a 3-9X Bushnell scope (Street Price $300)...Exact same barrel and bolt as the top of the line Savage rifles. ....I witnessed this with my own eyes.......Here is one short quote......"For those who are new to Savage bolt guns, it means that this rifle is very accurate; a lot more accurate than a hunting rifle has to be. Several groups were fired that measured under one-half inch, but the five-eighths inch group shown was typical for the day. No groups measured in excess of the magical one-inch mark. I remember years ago when a typical hunting rifle took a lot of tuning and load development to shoot consistently under an inch at one hundred yards. Now, many rifles will do that well or better, if you are willing to spend the money for a quality rifle. This Savage Edge, with standard hunting ammo produces very good accuracy, with no special tuning nor working up tailored handloads. Right out of the box, it shoots like a Savage."
When I read the gun magazine reviews on the semi custom rifles that cost upwards of $4000 (You know the names), and I see the accuracy reports of 1.5 inch groups, I just shake my head...................
The fact of the matter, it's not black magic. Accurate rifle can be mass produced at extremely reasonable costs...IN AMERICA WITH UNION WORK FORCE!!!!
We were allowed to ask anything and to visit any part of the factory and witness anything we desired. Cameras were allowed.
Because I've seen dozens upon dozens of box stock Savage rifles shooting well under an inch (5 shot groups @ 100yds) and more than half of them under 3/4" and many breaking the 1/2" barrier, I had to see for myself how they did it.
My conclusion......
A passion for well maintained and calibrated machinery, even though some of it is well older than anyone on this board!
A zero tolerance for poor raw materials.
An extreme low "use" count on the drills, reamers, buttons, cutting tools.
A very simple design;
Drilled, reamed and button rifled barrels
Toggle head bolt
Adjustable firing pin
Barrel nut assuring excellent head space (Watching an action/barrel headspaced is a beautiful example of simplicity and low torque)
Maybe the best factory trigger in the industry
Test,Test,Test.........All along assembly the amount of testing is quite impressive. "They are too small to have a problem and have to stop a whole line "
Pictures here:
http://public.fotki.com/Rbertalotto/bang!/savage-factory-tour/
Box stock Savage rifles in the $500 range have customarily broken 15 grade "A" Large chicken eggs at 200 yds with fifteen shots. In 16 years I've not seen a Remington do this. The only other "stock" rifle to ever do this is a Cooper.
Do a search on this here internet for reviews on the new Savage EDGE rifle that lists at $379 with a 3-9X Bushnell scope (Street Price $300)...Exact same barrel and bolt as the top of the line Savage rifles. ....I witnessed this with my own eyes.......Here is one short quote......"For those who are new to Savage bolt guns, it means that this rifle is very accurate; a lot more accurate than a hunting rifle has to be. Several groups were fired that measured under one-half inch, but the five-eighths inch group shown was typical for the day. No groups measured in excess of the magical one-inch mark. I remember years ago when a typical hunting rifle took a lot of tuning and load development to shoot consistently under an inch at one hundred yards. Now, many rifles will do that well or better, if you are willing to spend the money for a quality rifle. This Savage Edge, with standard hunting ammo produces very good accuracy, with no special tuning nor working up tailored handloads. Right out of the box, it shoots like a Savage."
When I read the gun magazine reviews on the semi custom rifles that cost upwards of $4000 (You know the names), and I see the accuracy reports of 1.5 inch groups, I just shake my head...................
The fact of the matter, it's not black magic. Accurate rifle can be mass produced at extremely reasonable costs...IN AMERICA WITH UNION WORK FORCE!!!!
Well, it is neat they can make a $379 rifle that shoots like that. But let's not get carried about with his quote. they were 3 shot groups. 3 shots tend to open up a lot when you do 10 shots and don't eliminate so-called flyers.
That quote is from gunblast:
http://www.gunblast.com/Savage-Edge243.htm
Here is the one group he thought best to post a photo of:
Who knows what that would look like with 5 or 10 shots.
That quote is from gunblast:
http://www.gunblast.com/Savage-Edge243.htm
Here is the one group he thought best to post a photo of:
Who knows what that would look like with 5 or 10 shots.
So the fact still remains though that the Savages did shoot that well, 3 shoots or not. For a bone stock off the shelf rifle, they are offering the average Joe an incredible rifle. The floating bolt head design makes it so much easier for a production gun to be as accurate as possible, one rifle to the next. Your average Remington will not shoot as well as the average Savage out of the box.
That is why Savage has gained market share at an incredible rate over the past few years, plus they are offering more of what shooters are looking for too. Cerebus Capital has really put a hurt on Remington quality since they purchased it.
That is why Savage has gained market share at an incredible rate over the past few years, plus they are offering more of what shooters are looking for too. Cerebus Capital has really put a hurt on Remington quality since they purchased it.
I guess you have not shot many of the newest Remington's vs. Savages or read many of the hunting forums then. Savage has gained more and more market share over the past several years due to their inherent out of the box accuracy. It is not a well kept secret anymore from my experience or from others across the US. I know it is hard to accept that the ugly duckling is just a better production built rifle for the reasons that I stated and it too, is common knowledge.
Take the Stevens 200 series vs the lower cost Remington's. No contest what so ever. And now Savage has the EDGE that is even cheaper than the Stevens and still is as accurate as any production rifles on average. Now these are not my idea of a fine firearm, but their accuracy is undeniable. It is rare for a Savage to not shoot MOA or better and that is just the way it is, as Larry Potter would say.
You might not like the clunky Savage action, but if you want the best chance at a great shooting rifle, without tweaking, the Savages are the best in their price range and their sales growth is proving it by word of mouth. I wonder what Factory rifles just set the 1000 yd team record last year? It was not the Remington Team
Take the Stevens 200 series vs the lower cost Remington's. No contest what so ever. And now Savage has the EDGE that is even cheaper than the Stevens and still is as accurate as any production rifles on average. Now these are not my idea of a fine firearm, but their accuracy is undeniable. It is rare for a Savage to not shoot MOA or better and that is just the way it is, as Larry Potter would say.
You might not like the clunky Savage action, but if you want the best chance at a great shooting rifle, without tweaking, the Savages are the best in their price range and their sales growth is proving it by word of mouth. I wonder what Factory rifles just set the 1000 yd team record last year? It was not the Remington Team
I am not referring to that. I am speaking of your claim that Remington quality has decreased since they got an influx of capital from investors who are enthusiasts. That is highly improbable and, if anything, the opposite is more likely true.
I also hear Savages are good. I bought one, but was not impressed with the 0.020 TIR on the muzzle threads. I had to have it re-threaded. They are not my style. On the other hand, I have a Savage Cub youth .22lr rifle and like it very much.
These red lines are all the same length from my 10FP before it being fixed:
I also hear Savages are good. I bought one, but was not impressed with the 0.020 TIR on the muzzle threads. I had to have it re-threaded. They are not my style. On the other hand, I have a Savage Cub youth .22lr rifle and like it very much.
These red lines are all the same length from my 10FP before it being fixed:
So why has their quality been so up and down in recent years? And now Cerebus has shut down Marlin Firearms as well. They are a capital investment company that is looking at the bottom line more so than the quality of the firearms that they are producing, IMO. Time will tell, but it is a damn shame that a once great company is slipping. On top of all this Savages center-fire rifles are still 100% built in the US (I am thinking that all rim-fire manufacturing was also returned to the US from Canada, but I can not say for sure).
That is a fact not yet in evidence. You have submitted no evidence their quality is down.
Irrelevant to our discussion.
False. Remington is owned by Freedom Group. It is a group focused on firearms, and run by people who are enthusiast.
Again, unsubstantiated claim. Even mid cost rifles now have the XMarkPro trigger set to 3.5 lbs - that seems like an improvement to me.
I assume that you have a threaded muzzle for a break.
How did your gunsmith take an off center bore and straighten it at the muzzle?
Give me some proof that even custom bbls have the bore centered down the length of the bbl?
I wouldn't be so quick to diss Savage over this one. My money would be that no matter what factory brand you chose, you would see the same thing.
Bob
How did your gunsmith take an off center bore and straighten it at the muzzle?
Give me some proof that even custom bbls have the bore centered down the length of the bbl?
I wouldn't be so quick to diss Savage over this one. My money would be that no matter what factory brand you chose, you would see the same thing.
Bob
They are owned by Cerebus Capital Management! That is a fact!
You can believe anything that you choose, but the people that are buying rifles are buying Savages like never before. Remington's are mentioned less and less in most hunting forums and when they are it seems that it is about issues not praise. The other issue is when there are problems, Remington Customer Service is abysmal. They will not consider repair on a rifle if it shoots no worse than 3 MOA! Come on now, even a hunting rifle should do far better than that!
Glad that you pick and choose what to denounce.
You can believe anything that you choose, but the people that are buying rifles are buying Savages like never before. Remington's are mentioned less and less in most hunting forums and when they are it seems that it is about issues not praise. The other issue is when there are problems, Remington Customer Service is abysmal. They will not consider repair on a rifle if it shoots no worse than 3 MOA! Come on now, even a hunting rifle should do far better than that!
Glad that you pick and choose what to denounce.
Here you go:
http://www.slate.com/id/2233154/
"Ironically, Freedom Group is a creation of Cerberus Capital Management, the private equity firm founded and controlled by Stephen Feinberg, a hard-core Republican. "
"Several years ago, Cerberus set up the Freedom Group as a vehicle to acquire gun and ammunition makers."
Now then denounce that one!
http://www.slate.com/id/2233154/
"Ironically, Freedom Group is a creation of Cerberus Capital Management, the private equity firm founded and controlled by Stephen Feinberg, a hard-core Republican. "
"Several years ago, Cerberus set up the Freedom Group as a vehicle to acquire gun and ammunition makers."
Now then denounce that one!
therifler
Silver $$ Contributor
I shoot rem 700 in competiton after I rework them .I would not consider shooting a factory action in long range competiton. I would also offer this thought about running a barrel between centers to install brakes . When you hold between centers all that is running true is the bore at both ends . You may want to consider going a little deeper in the barrel when indicating for a break. Just my way of doing things .However not my cup of tea but those savages are kicking butt on the shootin range .
The Rifler
The Rifler
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