Blueprinting and accuracy improvement - any proof?
- Thread starter rsilvers
- Start date
butchlambert
Site $$ Sponsor
I think most of this has been touched on in this thread. To build a competitive rifle on a factory receiver is more expensive than a custom receiver. Even though I have tools and machine tools to do the squaring[blueprint] of a receiver, I would only use a custom for competition and if it is a hunting rifle, I square the front of the receiver ring to the receiver bore and install a custom barrel. This is what I do for myself, I do no work for other people. It would be very hard to do a test of step by step changes. You can check a factory rifle out and record your results. If you do a full squareup of the receiver you will be threading a barrel with slightly oversize threads to match the oversized ones that are now in the receiver. So, what helped? Was it the straightened tenon or custom barrel? I guess you could chamber a new barrel and put it on the stock receiver first and shoot. Then you would need to cut the tenon off and rechamber to fit the squared up receiver with the larger threads. At what stage do you ream the raceways and square up the front of the receiver?
I just don't see a smith or individual taking the time or spending the funds for a one off test. Most improvements come from a barrel, trigger, and stock bedding. The rest is miniscule and I don't feel worth the bucks for the results.
I just don't see a smith or individual taking the time or spending the funds for a one off test. Most improvements come from a barrel, trigger, and stock bedding. The rest is miniscule and I don't feel worth the bucks for the results.
Bradley Walker
BoydAllen said:
No... I posted here... Cuz... It's a forum...
BoydAllen
Gold $$ Contributor
Hi Butch,
A friend barreled a varmint rifle, built on a Remington short action, pretty much as you described, truing up the front of the receiver ring and making sure that the lugs made good contact. He had built several other rifles, doing his own barrel work, with good results. Friends, who do their own work had gotten good results with this approach, so he was pretty confident that it would work for him. Two barrels later, he took a look at the action threads, and discovered that they were out by quite a bit. After they were corrected, the rifle settled down and did a lot better. Knowing of that situation, I would never just assume that a factory action was close enough. It cost my friend quite a bit of time and money.
You may be interested in how he found the problem. He chucked up a piece of non-stainless round stock and threaded it like he would a barrel, with a shoulder, using the action threads as a gauge for final fitting, to as close of a fit as he could turn on by hand (with lubrication and some effort...The action was not stainless.) After he had hand tightened the action onto the false tenon, the contact was in a very short area on one side, with a significant gap on the other side. Like I said, it was quite a bit out. The action face had been trued to the bolt raceway.
I know that in this work is sometimes not needed because years back he did a barrel job for me for a tight neck .222 on a 722 action. The lugs make good contact, the bolt was sleeved, the action face squared, and when will driven in favorable conditions, the rifle has put five shots in the teens. In short, that time we got away with it, and it was because of that experience and others that he and his buddies that do their own work had had, that he took the same approach for this one. Every other time they got by with it. This time it cost him a fair amount of trouble.
Boyd
A friend barreled a varmint rifle, built on a Remington short action, pretty much as you described, truing up the front of the receiver ring and making sure that the lugs made good contact. He had built several other rifles, doing his own barrel work, with good results. Friends, who do their own work had gotten good results with this approach, so he was pretty confident that it would work for him. Two barrels later, he took a look at the action threads, and discovered that they were out by quite a bit. After they were corrected, the rifle settled down and did a lot better. Knowing of that situation, I would never just assume that a factory action was close enough. It cost my friend quite a bit of time and money.
You may be interested in how he found the problem. He chucked up a piece of non-stainless round stock and threaded it like he would a barrel, with a shoulder, using the action threads as a gauge for final fitting, to as close of a fit as he could turn on by hand (with lubrication and some effort...The action was not stainless.) After he had hand tightened the action onto the false tenon, the contact was in a very short area on one side, with a significant gap on the other side. Like I said, it was quite a bit out. The action face had been trued to the bolt raceway.
I know that in this work is sometimes not needed because years back he did a barrel job for me for a tight neck .222 on a 722 action. The lugs make good contact, the bolt was sleeved, the action face squared, and when will driven in favorable conditions, the rifle has put five shots in the teens. In short, that time we got away with it, and it was because of that experience and others that he and his buddies that do their own work had had, that he took the same approach for this one. Every other time they got by with it. This time it cost him a fair amount of trouble.
Boyd
Rsilvers...I recently blueprinted a "brand new" Remington 700 S/A stainless steel...I only did this at the customers request...the customer asked me if blueprinting the action would enhance the accuracy...I told him that I would not compete with my Remy XP100 action if it were not blueprinted...I recommended that he research the subject via these websites and make his own decision...I will put a match grade barrel on any bone stock factory action if that is what the customer wants, but will not promise what type of accuracy can be expected...in other words it would be a surprise...that being said trueing the Remington SS action for this customer I found the action face cleaned up at .005" and it took that same amount to square the locking lug abuttments...the bolt face cleaned up at .003"...I cut the reciever threads .010" over...In my opinion...the action will give its best when trued...but the customers has to make their own decision...but...I shoot competitively and many of my customers shoot against me...it becomes an issue of minor details combining to make a big difference...action truing, match grade barrel, match grade ammo...then learn to shoot...
Eddie in Texas
Eddie in Texas
Bradley Walker
Thank you for your replies!
butchlambert
Site $$ Sponsor
With a loose fitting factory bolt, what will cutting the lugs fix? The cocking piece will push the upper lug away from receiver contact point. Below are pics of one of my Grandson's receiver,6X47Lapua.
This is a 600 receiver. It was blueprinted properly, fitted Kiff bolt, and custom bolt handle. It is nice, but I could have bought a custom for the investment that I had in the 600 receiver. It is what I call a true 1/2" rifle, that is 1/2" or below 5 shot groups everytime.
Anything for a Grandson.
This is a 600 receiver. It was blueprinted properly, fitted Kiff bolt, and custom bolt handle. It is nice, but I could have bought a custom for the investment that I had in the 600 receiver. It is what I call a true 1/2" rifle, that is 1/2" or below 5 shot groups everytime.
Anything for a Grandson.
BoydAllen
Gold $$ Contributor
My friend addressed this issue by sleeving both his bolt, and that of the 722 that I mentioned. He did them in the same style that Bob Brackney has done, sleeving under the rear bridge, and using a close fit between the diameter of the bolt nose (trued) and the recess in the barrel.
butchlambert
Site $$ Sponsor
Boyd, You can cheap things a bit and it may help a bit. If it really helps and he keeps it forever, it may be worth it. Most of us sell our rifles eventually. What is the difference in price on a worked on receiver and a custom?
BoydAllen
Gold $$ Contributor
Butch,
Properly done a sleeved bolt is at no disadvantage to a replacement bolt. Not too many years back, Bob won the California State 4 gun using all sleeved Remingtons against a tough field of custom actions. The sleeve doesn't show when the bolt is closed, and does not attract much attention when it is open. There is more than one way to skin this cat. As I see it, if the accuracy potentials are equal, it is more a matter of whether you have more time or money to spare.
Boyd
Properly done a sleeved bolt is at no disadvantage to a replacement bolt. Not too many years back, Bob won the California State 4 gun using all sleeved Remingtons against a tough field of custom actions. The sleeve doesn't show when the bolt is closed, and does not attract much attention when it is open. There is more than one way to skin this cat. As I see it, if the accuracy potentials are equal, it is more a matter of whether you have more time or money to spare.
Boyd
LOL, looks like they have your number Silvers. Most that really shoot know the answer, you should get out of the lab and try it sometime.
Mr Silvers always tries to get everyone to prove his thoughts for him so he doesn't waste his time or money.
Mr Silvers always tries to get everyone to prove his thoughts for him so he doesn't waste his time or money.
Bradley Walker
constructor said:
You guys really need to stop making personal comments. It's really not needed and pretty much lowers my opinion of the poster and the forum. You sound pretty dang condescending... Like you are "in the know"... and everyone who isn't is stupid...
Maybe you should go over to Benchrest Central and post there... They do that crap all the time...
Bradley Walker
OK. I decided I am going to run a head to head against my 6BR 40x that was trued and chambered by S and S Precision with a Kreiger 1-8 twist 6BR with my Remmy 700 that I built myself with a Criterion Pre fit 1-8 6BR using the Remmage barrel nut system.
BoydAllen
Gold $$ Contributor
Unless you know how crooked and out of line that particular Remington is, you won't have proved much other than which rifle is more accurate, assuming the other variables are handled well. I have a Remington 722 that shoots very well without having the receiver threads recut. A friend has one that was crooked enough that its threads needed to be recut. Mine does not prove that it never needs to be done, and his does not prove that it always does. Because of the amount of time, and the sort of tools that it takes to fully evaluate an action, and the small percentage of the total cost of a complete rifle that a first class blueprinting and clearance tightening represents, it hardly seems prudent to roll the dice and hope. This whole situation is why Remington clones have become so popular. The other fly in the ointment is that just because you pay someone to blueprint an action, does not guarantee the quality of the work. Compared to machining an action from scratch with well maintained and properly operated CNC machinery, correcting the flaws in an action using manual equipment is a lot trickier.
On the other hand, if the Criterion does well, and cleans easily, I am sure that many, including myself, will be interested. A friend has one that he put on a varmint rifle which needs a good bedding job to be finished. He shot it a little to see what it fouls like, and is very pleased with that. I hope that your rifle turns out to be a world beater. It will give all of us who have budgets to live within hope. Being able to install a lapped barrel without a lathe is an attractive proposition. I am playing with the idea of having a small shank Savage single pointed out to large shank, giving me a straight action that will take off the shelf barrels.
On the other hand, if the Criterion does well, and cleans easily, I am sure that many, including myself, will be interested. A friend has one that he put on a varmint rifle which needs a good bedding job to be finished. He shot it a little to see what it fouls like, and is very pleased with that. I hope that your rifle turns out to be a world beater. It will give all of us who have budgets to live within hope. Being able to install a lapped barrel without a lathe is an attractive proposition. I am playing with the idea of having a small shank Savage single pointed out to large shank, giving me a straight action that will take off the shelf barrels.
Bradley Walker
BoydAllen said:
I thought the same thing...
Upgrades & Donations
This Forum's expenses are primarily paid by member contributions. You can upgrade your Forum membership in seconds. Gold and Silver members get unlimited FREE classifieds for one year. Gold members can upload custom avatars.
Click Upgrade Membership Button ABOVE to get Gold or Silver Status.
You can also donate any amount, large or small, with the button below. Include your Forum Name in the PayPal Notes field.
To DONATE by CHECK, or make a recurring donation, CLICK HERE to learn how.
Click Upgrade Membership Button ABOVE to get Gold or Silver Status.
You can also donate any amount, large or small, with the button below. Include your Forum Name in the PayPal Notes field.
To DONATE by CHECK, or make a recurring donation, CLICK HERE to learn how.