Bipod for F-TR?

[seb]

Gentlemen,

Can someones explain if a bipod with coaxial/joystick feature can be used (=legal to use) in F-TR?

I can't find specific rules about bipod in the F-TR rules, only it shall be a bi-pod (=with two legs).

Okay, I plan to make it if it's ok/legal to use.
(It's just my newest idea.....well, not a secret anymore now).

The idea is to add joystick feature on a 'common' bipod.

That means the adjustment is/will be by the joystick (not rear bag squeezing)

Pro? Cons?

Thanks you in advance,
seb.

 

[Tahoe Shark]

I can't help on the legality of the coax feature but I would certainly be interested if it could be used in TR. It seems to me that you would also need an initial gross adjustment to get on target, then use the joystick to further refine your POA. Weight would come into play for those of us with purpose built TR rifles. If it were half as good as your NEO rests it would be good enough for me.

Tim

 

[FroggyOne2]

I think that that idea would take things beyond the scope of the game!

 

[seb]

To copy from NRA website, Section 22. F-Class Rifle Rules.... http://www.nrahq.org/compete/RuleBooks/HPR/hpr-w22.pdf

3.4.1 Rifle Rests

(b) F-Class Target Rifle (F-TR) Rests - A bipod and/or sling are the only allowed front supports for the F-TR
rifle. The rifle may be supported by a bipod and/or sling and a rear support which provide no positive
mechanical method for returning it to its precise point of aim for the prior shot. Subject to:
(1) The bipod and/or sling and rear support may not be attached to each other.
(2) The use of any form of a table is prohibited. Separate flat boards or plates not exceeding the
dimensions of the individual rests by two inches are allowed to be placed under the front and/or rear
rests. In the case of a bipod, the board or plate may not exceed the width of the bipod by 2", nor be
more than 12" front to rear. See Rule 3.4.1(a)(1).
No leveling screws or protrusions are allowed on these boards or plates. They must be flat on the top
and bottom.
This discipline is a modification of high power prone shooting, not a form of bench rest and should not
be construed as such.
Disabled competitors may apply to the NRA Protest Committee for appropriate dispensation.
The intent of this rule is to prevent the use of a table type device.
(3) A bipod is a device with no more than two legs that touch the firing point. It must be rigidly attached to
the forend of the rifle. The bipod may have rigid or folding legs, and may be adjustable to compensate
for the uneven surface of the firing point.
(4) No portion of the rifle’s butt or forend shall rest directly on the ground or any hard surface. A rear
rabbit eared bag, small sandbag or a gloved hand may be used to support the rifle’s butt. Any rear
support employed shall not be attached, clamped or held to the rifle in any manner. The rear support
may not be fixed to or protrude into the firing point. Mechanically adjustable rear support is not
allowed.
(5) Any number or type of objects may be placed beneath the bipod or rear support, to compensate for
variations in height or slope of the firing point.
(6) The bipod and rear rest may be adjusted after any shot to compensate for rest movement or settling.
A sling may be used in conjunction with the rest(s), but its weight will be included in the rifle’s overall
weight (Rule 3.4.(b)).


In Section 3. Equipment & Ammunition
3.3.2
(b) Bipods may be attached but not utilized.

"may be attached but not utilized"... What does this mean?

seb.

 

[Taildrag15X]

I agree with FroggyOne2 it will be on the edge of "not within the spririt of the Rules, which when written about the only thing mass produced was Harris and clones of the same. Not that I didn't get looked at funny with my first Laberge Bi Pod or my first set of Pod Paws, but by the Rules they were legal as they only have 2 legs and 2 contact points to the ground.

There has been all kinds of elevation adjustment systems, canting controls, sled feet and the like tried, just look at the Centershot and the Mystic Precision MPOD......

I'd say if you can keep the weight down it will sell, go for it!

 

[seb]

The idea is to create a bipod + joystick feature.
Imo, it would be more comfort to use & probably quicker to compensate for the condition.
Yes it must be lightweight (probably not over than 0.75 kg or 26oz) but to be strong/rigid enough for the purpose, comfort & easy to use, has adjustable legs & broad range of coarse elevation (fine adjustment is by the joytick, probably of about 25 moa travel only, square), foldable & compact to store, easy to secure on stock (either by sling screw or weaver type or anschutz rail), has a good feet design (probably interchangeable for various ground/surface), etc.

Problem is, I don't know if it is/would be legal or not to use in F-TR match. (technically/mechanically probably no problem).

seb.

 

[Taildrag15X]

seb,

You've went beyond the F-Class Rules with your question about Rule 3.3.2, which when read in it's full form answrs the question you asked......

 3.3.2 NRA Any Sight Match Rifle/Tactical Rifle - Same as NRA Match Rifle Rule 3.3 except there is no restriction as to sights. The following restrictions will apply:
(a) No person firing an any sight rifle under 3.3.2 will be allowed to compete with any other group of shooters who are also firing. A competitor using any sight rifle under Rule 3.3.2 will only be eligible for awards in their own division.
(b) Bipods may be attached but not utilized. Ammunition will be restricted to no larger than .35 caliber.

It covers using a Tacticl Rifle with an attached Bi Pod as a Match Rifle in the Any Rifle/Any Sight Class, not F-Class.

I've also been following this on Benchrest......

 

[effendude]

Seb,
If anyone can do it, and do it well, it will be you.

2 time Minnesota F-TR state champion Ed Higgins added a joystick feature to his Sinclair rev. 2 bipod this summer. He was feeling left out with all the Open shooters so he added a piece of wire with a handle on the end so he can have a joystick rest too. It makes him feel better when he moves the handle around like the big boys do. Pretty funny to watch!

Scott

 

[Taildrag15X]

seb,

Send the NRA Competition Division an emai with your question about "legal", they would be the true final say.

I don't think you'll call but included the number anyway;

Dennis Willing Director 703-267-1460 or compadmin@nrahq.org

Howard Moody National Manager 703-267-1475 or sbrifle@nrahq.org

I can,t see why it wouldnt be legal, 2 legs, 2 feet or "contact points to the ground", however heavy and with what ever you want for adjustments.

 

[Hombre0321]

I have read the F class rules several times, and it doesn't look at least to me that there is anything that would exclude this setup.

I also disagree with Froggy about the "scope of the game" if that is true then the new Sinclair 3rd generation rest would also have to be included with that statement. The joystick feature is just another way of doing the same thing as a elevation screw does. There also is another rest, sorry I can't remember the name, that has an elevation adjustment on the bi-pod that is to be used from shot to shot.

Roland

 

[ThunderDownUnder]

Seb, the current rules in ICFRA F T/R would allow a bipod with a joystick control. Your biggest problem would be making the bipod light enough to allow a competitive 308W build. Total weight of 8.25kg including bipod and scope is pretty restrictive especially when you factor in a 32" barrel to provide enough velocity for the heavy projectiles used in competition. The weight of the bipod needs to be under 2lb if you want to sell into the F T/R market and I would think 1.5lb would make it competitive and desirable.

Ian

 

[Taildrag15X]

I have read the F class rules several times, and it doesn't look at least to me that there is anything that would exclude this setup.

I also disagree with Froggy about the "scope of the game" if that is true then the new Sinclair 3rd generation rest would also have to be included with that statement. The joystick feature is just another way of doing the same thing as a elevation screw does. There also is another rest, sorry I can't remember the name, that has an elevation adjustment on the bi-pod that is to be used from shot to shot.

Roland

This to me is where the new shooters, young and old alike with no prior NRA Competitive Shooting experiance under either High Power or Fulbore Rules fial to understand the "history" of the game. I feel the same as Froggy does due to shooting competition for over 35yrs. and the reference to "scope of the game" is covered in the Complete Rule Books, both High Power and Fulbore, remember the Full Rullebook applies to F-Class, not just Section 22.

3.18 General - All devices or equipment which may facilitate shooting and which are not mentioned in these rules, or which are contrary to the spirit of these rules and regulations, are forbidden. The Match Director, Official
Referee, Jury Chairman or Supervisor shall have the right to examine a shooter’s equipment or apparel.
The responsibility shall be upon the competitor to submit questionable equipment and apparel for official inspection and approval in sufficient time prior to the beginning of a match so that it will not inconvenience either the competitor or the official.

 

[Leaddog]

Seb - I agree with Mike. Check with the NRA. They are the final authority. I shoot a lot of F Class F/TR and I wouldn't use a joystick. Maybe the Open guys would.

 

[Killshot]

Seb - I see no reason why a joystick-enabled bipod would 1) be illegal or 2) piss anyone off. Not at the matches I frequent, anyway.

It is simply changing how you adjust point of aim from the rear end to the front end. One still has to deal with all the other, sometimes negative, aspects of a bipod.

Much of society is resistant to change of ANY kind. Fortunately, our individual mortality ensures that we move forward as a group.....................eventually.

 

[memilanuk]

As long as the total weight of the rifle stays under the limit, and it has only two contact points, I'd say run it. Given the huge variety of contraptions on the line now that look like anything from a scissor jack to a piece of sheet metal with feet designed to be loaded and intentionally 'flexed'... I don't see the co-ax feature being a problem. Execution may be an issue, and whether it'll actually provide a meaningful benefit will be interesting to see.

 

[FroggyOne2]

Yes, the "scope of the game" feeling that I have about it is, the continued "equipment racing" of the sport. It is not the original intent of F/TR in the first place. A co-ax device on a bi pod to me is nothing more than another open class rest, just that it is on legs. It seems to me that so many try to game the game, instead of trying to do it in it's original context and improve your ability instead of the equipment improving your ability.
Sling shooters, it don't matter what kind of coat, mat, sling, stock or anything else. You still have to hold that rifle still! You can not game that.

But that is just me.

 

[holstil]

I don't know, looks to me the answer is right there in the rules. Sounds like a mechanical and precise means to return to point of aim to me.

As much as I like mechanical things I think they are better served in the open class or br.

I don't shoot f-class so what do I know?


Jim

 

[Keith Glasscock]

I don't know, looks to me the answer is right there in the rules. Sounds like a mechanical and precise means to return to point of aim to me.

As much as I like mechanical things I think they are better served in the open class or br.

I don't shoot f-class so what do I know?


Jim

Hook it to a 18 lb 308 shooting 200+ grain bullets at velocities exceeding 2650 and I bet there is nothing "precise" about it returning to the point of aim. I think the intent of that rule is to eliminate any return to battery designs that pull the rifle back into position. I don't think that a joystick is any different than an elevation adjustable bipod in that regard. Neither one returns to the original point of aim with any regularity.

I'd actually be surprised if the joystick worked out well with heavy bullets. The bipod typically jumps up and slams back down with each shot. I can only imagine what would happen if the center of gravity and loading was not equal between the feet. That said, I'd love to see it. I like new toys and would be willing to give it a try.

 

[Scott Harris]

Just my opinion, but it seems that joystick really benefits benchrest shooters trying to rattle off a 5 shot group really fast. F-class is a slower, more deliberate type of shooting and squeezing the sandbags and repositioning the rifle on a ski bipod works just fine. Also, I'm not sure if a joystick would be as helpful on a bipod platform that moves quite a bit under recoil. Joystick with a heavy unmoving pedestal rest is proven. Joystick with a bipod that slips and slides all over the place.....not sure there would be much benefit.

That said, seems like it would be allowed so long as it remains a bipod. As mentioned the other challenge will be keeping it light enough to be useful to an F-TR shooter with an 18.1 lb weight limit. Most F-TR shooters are trying to keep their bipod fairly light so they can add weight elsewhere. Just my .02 and it's worth what you paid for it.

 

[holstil]

I gathered that the idea of this thing was to be able to conveniently aim to a precise point.
If you can't aim precisely with it it prolly wouldn't be a good idea.

Seriously, I imagine that this would move with or hold position in relation to bipod after recoil. I don't guess it would matter what it's hooked to or how much it recoiled you would still have to manipulate the stick instead of squeezing a bag (as intented) in the end.

"This discipline is a modification of high power prone shooting, not a form of bench rest and should not be construed as such." I guess I take this differently then some. To me the joystick is clearly not in the spirit of f-class. Not to say that the joystick only belongs in br.

I imagine that driving a rear sand bag is a big part of shooting skill in the f-class game.
Also sounds like Sinclair got away with changing the game a bit. I'm all for a better mouse trap but it outta be where the mice are. But, I could be wrong, I don't know that much about f-class.
I do shoot off bipods though.

I don't care for joysticks myself I prefer turning screws. How bout a joystick I can twist for up and down? I don't mind the same direction sliding L=L R= R.