Bipod for F-TR?

[Taildrag15X]

I gathered that the idea of this thing was to be able to conveniently aim to a precise point.
If you can't aim precisely with it it prolly wouldn't be a good idea.

Also sounds like Sinclair got away with changing the game a bit. I'm all for a better mouse trap but it outta be where the mice are. But, I could be wrong, I don't know that much about f-class.

Sinclair didn't "invent" the F-Class Bi Pod, there were many different ones in Canada with Lou & Albert Laberge of Vermont producing theirs by the late 90's for us at F-Class shoots around Canada and New England. Remember it was shot at alot at Club level prior to 2007 when it really started growing after the NRA began Sanctioning Matches, the "sport" has been around close to 15 yrs. now.

This is a pic of my Laberge bi pod, made in 2003 mounted to my first F/TR rig, a Savage 112BT in .223 Rem.

 

[nosualc]

IMO, a joystick is a means to quickly and easily adjust point of aim. It does nothing to aid the rifle to mechanically/precisely return to that point of aim after firing. I think your idea passes this hurdle.

Does it violate the spirit of F T/R? If so, only by a slight degree more than products already on the market. Sinclair's newest f-class bipod, with it's vertical adjustment is in practice the same thing, minus the stick.

SEB, I own a NEO, and if you make an F-TR bipod, I'll likely buy one, and I don't shoot F-T/R.

-nosualc

ps - I tried Ed Higgins' Bipod, and it didn't work for me.

 

[effendude]

I can see where a co-ax bipod would work to some extent for a 18# .223 rifle, but I doubt it will be too effective when shooting a .308. There is way too much recoil. I also love gadgets and look forward to Seb giving this a go.

We all shoot rifles, regardless of discipline, for different reasons and have different goals. F-class really has evolved into two distict disciplines. F-Open has become belly-benchrest with a slower shooting pace. Most of my friends and my wife shoot F-Open and they shoot amazing scores with heavy rifles often using co-ax rests. F-TR is more true to the sports original intent. I mostly shoot F-TR because I enjoy the added challenge and hunting is my passion. F-TR more closely duplicates the skills needed for longer range hunting.

I take great personal satisfaction when I can post the same scores, or nearly the same, as the F-Open shooters while shooting F-TR. My Highmaster card means a great deal to me because I earned it shooting F-TR. I am not taking anything away from anyone, again, shooting is a personal thing. If someone gains an unfair advantage with a new piece of equipment, it just means I will work harder to beat them without using the new gadget. Another example is every year at Perry, a service rifle shooter or three will be a few points behind the match rifle shooters with the better sights, cartridges, rifles, etc. I have a huge amount of respect for those service rifle shooters who, while handicapped by equipment, post amazing scores.

We have more in common than we have differences.

Scott

 

[seb]

Thanks you all guys for the feedbacks! Much appreciated.

Actually I have kept the idea as 'a secret' from last year.
The UK dealer for my products (Fox Firearms) once asked me if I would make bipod for the F-TR.
For some reasons I don't have interest to make a conventional type bipod, but I realized a few months ago that I have never seen or read in the net about bipod with joystick feature.
I've made some sketches & already contemplated with the designs, only didn't have time to make the prototype.
Weight etc would be no problem I suspect, just the legality to use in F-TR match. (However the bipod can be used for any type of prone shooting or hunting, not only intended for F-TR. It's just better to make a 'universal' bipod & also legal to use in F-TR).
I'll soon make a prototype and will check if it would work as expected. (I will be attending an F-O shoot for the first time next Nov 1-3 in Bisley, it must be also a good time to consult with the F-TR shooters at the match, or to 'test drive' it on the practice day).
I will also contact the NRA about the legality. Thanks you Taildrag for the info!

seb.

 

[seb]

Nosualc, thanks you for choosing the NEO rest!
Later on the bipod mate, I would only produce the bipod if it works (superbly) as expected.

seb.

 

[seb]

The intend of creating a bipod w/ joystick feature is not to 'gaming?' the game or the rules in anyway, by the way. Rules are rules, either they are good/usable or 'irrational'.
It's more as an innovation (or to be different) & to achieve a more comfort setup. (just my thought).
That was why I ask about the legality before I even start to make it.
Because I don't know, also.

seb.

 

[Hombre0321]

It sometimes is amazing to me how many folks who don't shot a sport won't to define the rules of that sport. Why do they care?

I do not see anything in the rules to prohibit this joy-stick deal, that was the question in the begining. Not weather or not it should or shouldn't be used. Was it legal? And then this gaming thing jumps up and suddenly some folks that don't even have a dog in the fight want to make this about Gaming.

Froggy, If I am not mistaken you are a sling shooter over there in Oak Ridge, correct me if I am wrong. From your conversation at the range and your writtings here you don't actually hold F-Class in very high regard. That is fine by the way, you get to decide how and what you feel about anything from Cupcakes to Sports Cars. I support your right to have an opinion on any subject that comes up. But why do you care if this joystick is legal or not? What difference in the life of a sling shooter is going to make?

 

[FroggyOne2]

Hombree,

Sent ya private message.

 

[memilanuk]

The big variables right now for F/TR - outside the whole ballistics thing - is making the shooter's influence on the gun, in the form of grip, cheek, and shoulder pressure, as consistent as possible. With the 'state of the art' in F/TR beginning to migrate towards heavier and heavier bullets such as 185s, 200-210s, and 215+gn pills... recoil management gets to be more and more of an issue. Shooting styles and techniques that worked with 155s @ 3000fps often don't work so well with a 200 @ 2600-2700. Light holds that border on 'free recoil' are becoming less common... and bipods that bounce or hop significantly under recoil become less attractive. Not sure I see how adding a joystick into the mix is going to positively change that equation, but I am interested in seeing how it works out.

 

[FroggyOne2]

Shooting "free recoil" is not allowed in F/Class I thought.

 

[memilanuk]

Technically its not, but enforcing that is difficult at best. Note I said 'border on'. I can shoot 155s with a hold involving no cheek contact, almost no grip (if I had a lighter trigger, it would be *none*), and so little shoulder pressure it 'borders on' free recoil... but there still is contact between shoulder and stock so it meets the letter of the law i.e. 'fired from the shoulder'. Not my preferred method or one that I use regularly, but it works.

 

[effendude]

I didn't know F-class had a free recoil issue. This topic wiggles in every once in a while and then fades away. It really is a non-factor.

I know of no one who shoots F-class in what I believe BR shooters call free recoil. Some of the best F-class shooters may not have any cheek pressure, but their shoulder is behind the rifle, however slightly the contact. They may only touch the trigger with no other hand contact. They do allow the rifle to move back into them by sliding on the bags and rest but this travel is really minimal.

When shooters first try F-TR with a .308, they often attempt the same style free-recoil technique that works for F-Open or shooting off the bench. They need almost two firing positions by the time they get done bouncing through recoil and the developed flinch they get. A first aid kit is often helpful too.

I started wearing my old HP coat and a sweatshirt underneath while shooting this year. I found that shooting 185 or heavier bullets, I needed to control the rifle much more, just as Monte states. This control caused pulse movement, just like sling shooting. The coat resolved most of that issue. Further work on position resulted in the ability to both call shots, and to watch the trace and bullet hit at 600 and beyond.

Scott

 

[seb]

Hi guys,

What you say if I can make the bipod just in 20.2 (twenty point two) ounces, with probably the sturdiest one in its weight class, with NO any rattle in the bipod like I've seen on some other bipods, with a unique & extra quick height adjustment (w/ fine 3 mm teeth-increment, you might never seen it before), about 5" height adjustment in the legs (from about 5.5" to 10.5"), constant width of legs approximately 20" apart CTC, extra large feet (w/ ribs), with cant feature, and extra smooth joystick?

Yes, I am almost done with the models - these units will be tested & evaluated by some of the Best F-Class Shooters in the world, very soon.

seb.

 

[mao0720]

Id say putme on the list.

 

[kelbro]

Put me on the list as well.

 

[jamesl]

What price range will this be in?

James

 

[seb]

For USA order please contact Ernie Bishop in WY..... ernieemily (at) yahoo dot com.

Introductory price would be US$ 399.00 plus shipping.
A nice soft case (about 4" x 7" x 21", thick padded, costs about $ 25) is included.
This is for 100 units only (the first batch).
Will be available around September to December 2013.
Shipping weight (with the soft case & thick cardboard packaging) would be about 4 lbs.
Standard rail is Freeland / Anschutz.
Standard finish is high polish. I still don't have anodize finish, yet.

Is it expensive? Not at all if you see the details & workmanship & the features.
It takes about 25 hours to build one. (Handmade, with tightest tolerances as we are known for).
Just a few that can make a really good joystick rest.
Just one that makes a joystick bipod "like this" (patent pending). And I can tell you that NO one can make this bipod in this price range with the features & workmanship like mine.

This model is primarily designed for F-TR shooting/competition, however it will also great for varmint / PD shooting (etc) if you want to.

Wait for the photos & video around mid April!

Note: There could be some improvements after the pre-production units have been tested.

All the best,
seb.

 

[Johnboy]

Ok I just read all of the post and understand all who posted to this thread.Now with that said I fall in the few who wants to keep the FT/R class simple.I will soon be a part of this for I will be shooting at my first match at the end of May.Now since I am wanting to get into this sport I have read a lot about it,so I am somewhat up to speed.If I am wrong in any way please say so,but I understand that the FT/R class was made around the idea to bring in NEW SHOOTERS.It was ment for shooters who didn't have the option of a really nice rig ( custome built ) to be a part of the match shooting world.To this is why the rules are made up for more of a stock rifle,from sights to weight,even the type of rest used ( bipod ) being the only type.Even the idea of only allowing two cals to choose from ( 223 and 308 )

Now with all that said I feel that the highend shooters have taken this class ( FT/R ) to a whole new level.It was ment to add new shooters not to let better or higher paid shooters out do the little guys.Again please correct me if I am wrong in any way,its just the fact to what I have learned about the sport ( FT/R class ) I
've read and learned it was ment to give a chance for new guys like me to get into the sport.So my thoughts would be to keep it real and simple,not all kinds of setups you can add to keep ahead of the new guy.I would love for one of the rules to rule out barrels that are longer than 24" to 26".This alone would keep the playing field simple,it would allow the new guys a better chance to hold their own.

 

[broncman]

I only have a few FT\R matches and I do believe you are wrong in the intentions.

ALL shooting sports become an arms race, that is why they are called competitions!

It is a spin off of NRA highpower, plain and simple.

All NRA sanctioned matches have a beginner class! It is called Marksmen!

F Open is truly a any rifle class. If you want to win Over All you dont show up with a Pinto Station wagon or a stock hunting rifle!

What do you want? A spec class where everyone shoots the same rifle?

What would a 24-26" barrel limitation do to help newcomers? They show up with a 24 " factory barrel and someone else shows up with a handlapped krieger and lots of experience, what are you gonna complain about then?

 

[Steve Blair]

I only have a few FT\R matches and I do believe you are wrong in the intentions.

ALL shooting sports become an arms race, that is why they are called competitions!

It is a spin off of NRA highpower, plain and simple.

All NRA sanctioned matches have a beginner class! It is called Marksmen!

F Open is truly a any rifle class. If you want to win Over All you dont show up with a Pinto Station wagon or a stock hunting rifle!

What do you want? A spec class where everyone shoots the same rifle?

What would a 24-26" barrel limitation do to help newcomers? They show up with a 24 " factory barrel and someone else shows up with a handlapped krieger and lots of experience, what are you gonna complain about then?

[br]
All of Broncman's points are correct. A 24" barrel would also make 1000 yard matches problematic. A .308 would be pushed to the absolute limit to have terminal velocity above the transonic range. I competed pretty well in F-T/R with a factory Savage F-Class rifle, Sinclair bipod and Sightron scope. It was never the rifle's fault when I did not win.