Benefits of a tuner

[gunsandgunsmithing]

From what I’m understanding from this thread is that Tuners are not necessarily a a tool that is used to improve groups/ performance, but are helpful in maintaining that degree of performance when varying conditions and situations present themselves.
They are a quick and easy “ On Site “ tool that allows manipulation of the existing proven good ammo / Rifle combo if it for some reason falls out of “ Tune “ .

I’ve always wondered if their benefits are Range specific , the disciplines that seem to favour them are “ known distance “ .

So is there a cross over somehow with positive compensation and tuners at known distance ?

That is a serious question, because I’m in an area I know nothing about .

Good post. Thing is....tuners don't create PC. It has always been there, tuner or not.

 

[AlNyhus]

From what I’m understanding from this thread is that Tuners are not necessarily a a tool that is used to improve groups/ performance, but are helpful in maintaining that degree of performance when varying conditions and situations present themselves.
They are a quick and easy “ On Site “ tool that allows manipulation of the existing proven good ammo / Rifle combo if it for some reason falls out of “ Tune “

That's my only expectation. -Al

 

[jimmymac]

Alex, the way I did my tuner stuff last season was to tune the gun w/o it on for a base line. Then I put the tuner on, ran it back to the shoulder, backed it away from the shoulder until the '0' mark was at the top and ran my test with 3 shot groups and backing the tuner out 1 number for each group. When my 'base line' group showed up, I knew it was in tune. It would hang in there for 3 numbers until it started going away. Rinse and repeat from there as it would come back and go away as the tuner advaced toward the muzzle.

Later in the season, I had a gut feeling that the 'tune' seemed to get wider (more numbers before it fell off). So I ran it way out and tested it. My hunch was wrong.

Trying to tune a gun up with a tuner on it right from the start seems a little odd.

Interesting stuff Al. That is basically how I dealt with it. I just didn’t like the idea of tuning twice. It seemed counter intuitive to me and I felt all I was really achieving was burning up valuable barrel life.

After some thought, I decided that I’d try a different way. I screwed on a new barrel, added the tuner and started off like that with powder and seating depth tuning. I decided I’d handle it as if the tuner was just part of the barrel as it came from the manufacturer instead of an addition after the fact.

My reasoning for doing this? Every new barrel needs a tune up. None are exactly the same and none are perfect. By powder tuning and finding seating depth, we wring as much out of the barrel as it will give. That’s why I now add the tuner from the get go because I already have work to do to get what I can out of the barrel.

I mark my barrel at 12:00 so I have a constant reference. I thread the tuner on until it bottoms out. I then back it out roughly 1 turn until I get to a whole number on the tuner. The number is obviously not important. It just serves as a convenient place holder. You could go two turns, three or whatever. I found it didn’t matter and I also found out this method works with different weights of tuners as well as different types of tuners. The dirty little secret is that I could find a competitive tune by adjusting powder and seating depth to match whatever tuner setting I initially started off with. After that it has been pretty simple. I mostly don’t turn the thing unless the gun comes out of tune, and I’ve found I don’t need much of a move to get it back to being competitive.

My main takeaway though is that I strongly feel the tuner is giving me a greater cushion on my powder charge than without it. For instance, I had a half grain cushion on a PPC barrel I used to make some hay with last year. I settled on a powder charge right in the middle and tested during the match up 3 tenths and down two tenths. I could have won that match with any of those loads but settled on the middle because it made sense. I’m always trying to tune for the middle. Never on the edge.

These are my findings. I don’t understand the science or even attempt to. I just know after much testing this is what works best for me as a SR Benchrest competitor. I’m not saying this is the best way to do it. What I am saying is that my results over a couple seasons with more than one gun and several barrels encourages me to just do more of the same. YMMV. Good shooting to you buddy.

 

[misser]

Nothing whatsoever. I just got a kick out of the pie plates. I just envisioned some old deer hunter with his trusty 30-30 trying a tuner and claiming it doesn't do anything.

I wanted to make a big detailed write up of my tuner experiences but I can't seem to find the time. I have used a tuner/tuner brake since I started shooting 600/1000yd BR. I work up a load, with the tuner installed, make it shoot as good as I can by tweaking powder/seating depth. Now, I tune a little different than some do as I want to find the middle of what shoots good and that may not be the very best groups that the rifle is capable of but it's also not on the razors edge and about to fall out of bed with the slightest change. This is what has worked for me as I preload at home and travel without any ammo tuning option other than seating depth. Then I shoot 2 shot groups changing the tuner and paying attention to POI more than anything else really and choose my tuner setting that way. For me, I find it best to do all of the load work up/tuning at or as close to the intended shooting distance that you can. Not everyone has that luxury but I tune at 500 and 930yd as that's what I have to shoot safely. I haven't ever tweaked my tuners during a match, I would've liked to a couple times but I have never taken the time to learn which way I need to go, so I fall in that camp of never touching them after they are set. I feel like they do give a broader tune window when picking a setting from looking for similar POI.

I am also of the belief that all of this "tuning" can be accomplished by load development without the use of the tuner IF a person takes the time to do so and learn what changes do what. It just goes back to more than one way to skin a cat.

Lastly, personal tuner experience where it was negative... I was getting ready to shoot the covid nationals and my rifle was shooting great at 930yds, consistent low 3" groups with very little vertical. I was at the point where I was done and ready to tweak my tuner setting but that day the wind was up and mirage was bad. I have two firing lines, one for 930yd and another for 500yd. The 500 was protected from the wind and so I went over there and decided to shoot my tuner test at 330yd as I had just built that target frame and hadn't used it yet. The 930yd load didn't shoot very well at 330 but after a few turns of the tuner rings it came into its own and I'm feeling pretty good. Next day I go back to 930yd and the rifle is shooting 12" of vertical and it's all over the place. I thought about it a little and put the tuner back to where I had it when shooting that distance and it went right back to shooting 3" groups with no vertical. THIS is why for ME I want to develop and tune at the intended distance or at least as close as I can get. Now, in the end, that rifle and I put in the worst performance I have ever shot and I think I shot the barrel out testing before the match.

As to the large ES numbers shooting better at distance than the lower ES, It's not that we intentionally try to add ES to a load to get it to shoot better. It's that we shoot multiple groups/ladders at distance and pay attention to what the paper shows us and that means more often than not, we have to ignore the chronograph. PC is real.

paper plates are dirt cheep and only need one pin to hold to back board

 

[AlNyhus]

My reasoning for not having the tuner on with a new barrel showed up in spades recently. My new 30BR Bartlein 1:17 shot great the first time out. On subsequent sessions to try another bullet, it got a bit fussy about vertical. On the third range session, it became virtually untuneable with multiple powders, three different bullets (two Nyhus'...whoever that dirt clod may be...and a BIB), seating depth changes, ad nauseum. I knocked the gun apart and went over everything. No joy. It would shoot small for one group and the next group would be a mid .2 with a couple of Mickey Mouse ears.

Today, with a new scope on the gun it shoots like a real BR gun again with my .3084/.3086.117's. Good thing too as Grandpa's straight edge razor was starting to look pretty good.

It's easy to get lost when you're trying to deal with sneaky stuff like this. I can't fathom working through something like this by having a tuner in the mix right from the get go.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

My reasoning for not having the tuner on with a new barrel showed up in spades recently. My new 30BR Bartlein 1:17 shot great the first time out. On subsequent sessions to try another bullet, it got a bit fussy about vertical. On the third range session, it became virtually untuneable with multiple powders, three different bullets (two Nyhus'...whoever that dirt clod may be...and a BIB), seating depth changes, ad nauseum. I knocked the gun apart and went over everything. No joy. It would shoot small for one group and the next group would be a mid .2 with a couple of Mickey Mouse ears.

Today, with a new scope on the gun it shoots like a real BR gun again with my .3084/.3086.117's. Good thing too as Grandpa's straight edge razor was starting to look pretty good.

It's easy to get lost when you're trying to deal with sneaky stuff like this. I can't fathom working through something like this by having a tuner in the mix right from the get go.

I hear ya but it's just a matter of time and building confidence is all. Been there with a batch of bullets. Finally figured it out and getting the same thing in different bbls and it going away in all with a different bullet. Shot good, just not what it should. That can be tough to find at times but I never blamed the tuner. It'll come, buddy.

 

[Dimner]

Good post. Thing is....tuners don't create PC. It has always been there, tuner or not.

That's a good point. But it begs the question, how does one ensure positive compensation is already there or will be there when building a rifle?

 

[JFrank]

That's a good point. But it begs the question, how does one ensure positive compensation is already there or will be there when building a rifle?

I’m find PC is in the powder charge.

 

[jimmymac]

Isn’t PC an acronym for plumbers crack?

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

That's a good point. But it begs the question, how does one ensure positive compensation is already there or will be there when building a rifle?

It's in the load. A ladder shows much of the same in regard to POI. It's tuning for smallest groups at the TOP of bbl swing, in simple terms. There are other factors to tune but it'll shoot smallest near the top and near the bottom of swing. IMO, PC can only happen on the upswing. The groups on either side of a sweet spot at top or bottom are confirmation of being at an anti-node(good thing). We use incorrect terminology when we call it "being in the node" etc. Technically, the node of bbl swing at the muzzle is what some call the "scatter node". It's just terminology and most often we all know what it means in general jargon. There are also powder related velocity plateaus. IMHO, when you move a tuner you are changing what is essentially a constant and every mark should have a corresponding value on the target that can be read as group shape. I don't think there are areas on a tuner that the tune window is wider than others but there are areas that don't open as much as it progresses away from a sweet spot while moving it. Powder tuning is similar but different in regard to what can create a true wide "node".

 

[Acyr]

My reasoning for not having the tuner on with a new barrel showed up in spades recently. My new 30BR Bartlein 1:17 shot great the first time out. On subsequent sessions to try another bullet, it got a bit fussy about vertical. On the third range session, it became virtually untuneable with multiple powders, three different bullets (two Nyhus'...whoever that dirt clod may be...and a BIB), seating depth changes, ad nauseum. I knocked the gun apart and went over everything. No joy. It would shoot small for one group and the next group would be a mid .2 with a couple of Mickey Mouse ears.

Today, with a new scope on the gun it shoots like a real BR gun again with my .3084/.3086.117's. Good thing too as Grandpa's straight edge razor was starting to look pretty good.

It's easy to get lost when you're trying to deal with sneaky stuff like this. I can't fathom working through something like this by having a tuner in the mix right from the get go.

LOL!

 

[Fuj]

paper plates are dirt cheep and only need one pin to hold to back board

Use 2 pins so the plate does not swing left or right in the wind.
You could end up shooting smiley's, then start wondering where
that horizontal group came from. New meaning for moving targets.

 

[JEFFPPC]

Use 2 pins so the plate does not swing left or right in the wind.
You could end up shooting smiley's, then start wondering where
that horizontal group came from. New meaning for moving targets.

I would be surprised if a guy shooting groups on a paper plate held with only one pin would be using conventional wind flags. Smart guy that he is, his paper plate also serves as his wind flag. Probably doesn't believe in tuners either, alrhough he never tried one.

 

[AckleymanII]

I shot the Browning Rifles with the BOSS on them, 270, 30/06. and 7 Mag. We tuned loads to shoot sub 3/8", ALWAYS!

 

[Dimner]

.Lastly, personal tuner experience where it was negative... I was getting ready to shoot the covid nationals and my rifle was shooting great at 930yds, consistent low 3" groups with very little vertical. I was at the point where I was done and ready to tweak my tuner setting but that day the wind was up and mirage was bad. I have two firing lines, one for 930yd and another for 500yd. The 500 was protected from the wind and so I went over there and decided to shoot my tuner test at 330yd as I had just built that target frame and hadn't used it yet. The 930yd load didn't shoot very well at 330 but after a few turns of the tuner rings it came into its own and I'm feeling pretty good. Next day I go back to 930yd and the rifle is shooting 12" of vertical and it's all over the place. I thought about it a little and put the tuner back to where I had it when shooting that distance and it went right back to shooting 3" groups with no vertical. THIS is why for ME I want to develop and tune at the intended distance or at least as close as I can get. Now, in the end, that rifle and I put in the worst performance I have ever shot and I think I shot the barrel out testing before the match.

I see your story as a positive experience with a tuner! To be able to quickly try an new tune, digest the results and go back to your original tune in 30 seconds is very valuable.

The benefits of a tuner? Repeatability

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

I see your story as a positive experience with a tuner! To be able to quickly try an new tune, digest the results and go back to your original tune in 30 seconds is very valuable.

The benefits of a tuner? Repeatability

Same here. Repeatability, IME, comes from knowing increment values. Knowing what 1 mark or 2 or whatever, does on the target. If you don't KNOW that...ya got nuttin. Doesn't matter how ya tune, ya gotta establish that increment value or you're simply guessing. That's not a guess, it's common sense.

 

[Ccrider]

I shot the Browning Rifles with the BOSS on them, 270, 30/06. and 7 Mag. We tuned loads to shoot sub 3/8", ALWAYS!

The Boss works, no doubt. I had and used them well before tuners became in vogue. They are hell on your ears and worse on your buddies ears.

 

[BoydAllen]

One thing that the fellow that makes the tuner that my friend uses cautioned me about was over tightening the tuner on the barrel. All you really want to do is tighten it so that it is snug. If you get carried away, you can distort the bore.

 

[quest450]

if slightly tighter than snug can distort the bore I wonder what using a barrel vice would do to my barrel

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

if slightly tighter than snug can distort the bore I wonder what using a barrel vice would do to my barrel

Heck, I just use a pipe vice! Lol! Gun Plumber Takes less pressure and doesn't slip. Lol!