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Barrel tuners. Good or a waste of time?

Terry said:
The link above helped me understand keeping my powder charge right. Can something similar be done with a fixed charge and tuner adjustment or
am I going the wrong way?
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Yes sir! It's exactly the same. Even group size and shape, tuner vs traditional are very similar. IME, 1 mark on my tuner is very near equivalent to .3 grains of n133 in a ppc.
You're a long range guy so I'm not sure how much help that is to you but it demonstrates that the two can be correlated.
 
oldduc said:
Business people who use the forum to pimp their business and then act like asses should worry about causing harm to their businesses. IMHO!
~Gary
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Gary, (oldduc, aka Orygun), I assure you, Mike Ezell and Bart Sauter are not trying to, as you say, "Pimp their businesses' with their posts here on the forum. I have known both of them for many years and have the highest regards and greatest respect for each of them. They are just unselfishly trying to share with all of us what they have learned through the years for our benefit. The fact that they disagree on a certain point is perfectly understandable and if they get a little testy and colorful in their wording once in a while just overlook it and smile. This is how we learn!

In my experience, when experts disagree about something it is usually because they are talking about two different things. They probably see the same thing about this positive compensation thing but are having trouble communicating with the written word. Mike Ezell, like me, wants to keep things as simple and uncomplicated as possible, while Bart wants to include what he calls "quadrants" in his tuning when deciding which part of the tuner face to 'fine tune' in.

I'm keeping an open mind and hoping Bart can/will reveal something that I have not discovered yet about how to use the tuner. We can all three, Mike, Bart and myself, agree on one thing; you must make small adjustments!!!

When I begin tuning a barrel, I always place the tuner on 'zero'; never finding it necessary to move the tuner either side of 'zero' more than four thousandths to bring the barrel into tune. I believe you can explore the entire cycle of the barrel within this 8 thousandths of movement. If I understand Bart correctly, he believes that before you begin 'fine tuning' you must first locate the best of the four 'quadrants' and tune only in that window. Bart, is that correct? Correct me if I'm wrong.

Gene Beggs
 
Mike below are your comments! Why would any top shooter post hard earned info here. No one else on this thread is having a hissy fit but you! I'm getting pm'ed telling me to quit giving away so much info on tuning. Do you have anything else to add on the subject of tuning? In particular finding a setting (with a tuner) that allows the gun to shoot the same POI over a large Change in load and velocity? BTW Ive done this on short range rifles and Long Range rifles. All kinds of different stocks and barrels. You've been very clear that I don't know what I'm doing or talking about.

So please, Tell us what you know!

You have no idea what I know or dont and how many times I have discussed optimal poi with people, Bart. You just think you're the only one that knows anything.


The reason I seldom post about positive compensation is the number of variables and subjectivity. But yes, I do believe pc is real. If you want to delve into that, we can but it's not all about tuners or barrels. It's about center of gravity, how the gun rotates, stock design, rigidity, angles, front and rear rests, shooting uphill or downhill....tons of factors but pc ain't just about tuners.

I had a hard enough time convincing you to move my tuner one mark at a time. You acted the same way then. I didn't think you were ready for pc. Or maybe it was that I didn't feel like arguing we it you. Yes, you're an accomplished shooter. You should wear that badge with honor and maybe a tad of humility instead of using it as the reason why you know better than anyone about everything shooting related.
Go ahead. I'll sit back and watch.
 
Thank you Gene. Yes, I think Bart and I do mostly agree, if not completely, minus some terminology and maybe some small differences in how we get to the same point.

Hopefully, we'll know soon what he's getting at. I do like seeing passion about a subject that I think is important to the sport and advancing it. Truth be told and I've heard it from others. Some really wish we could keep tuners all to ourselves. That's not what this sport is about, to me. The br community is tineeeee and we all know each other through somebody, if not directly. If your goal is to strike it rich in this game, you're thinking inside a very small box. I do this because I'm passionate about it. While Bart and I may be having a disagreement, the br community as a whole is made of the best people in any sport or pretty much any walk of life that I've ever been around. Great bunch of fine people!
 
BartsBullets said:
Mike below are your comments! Why would any top shooter post hard earned info here. No one else on this thread is having a hissy fit but you! I'm getting pm'ed telling me to quit giving away so much info on tuning. Do you have anything else to add on the subject of tuning? In particular finding a setting (with a tuner) that allows the gun to shoot the same POI over a large Change in load and velocity? BTW Ive done this on short range rifles and Long Range rifles. All kinds of different stocks and barrels. You've been very clear that I don't know what I'm doing or talking about.

So please, Tell us what you know!

You have no idea what I know or dont and how many times I have discussed optimal poi with people, Bart. You just think you're the only one that knows anything.


The reason I seldom post about positive compensation is the number of variables and subjectivity. But yes, I do believe pc is real. If you want to delve into that, we can but it's not all about tuners or barrels. It's about center of gravity, how the gun rotates, stock design, rigidity, angles, front and rear rests, shooting uphill or downhill....tons of factors but pc ain't just about tuners.

I had a hard enough time convincing you to move my tuner one mark at a time. You acted the same way then. I didn't think you were ready for pc. Or maybe it was that I didn't feel like arguing we it you. Yes, you're an accomplished shooter. You should wear that badge with honor and maybe a tad of humility instead of using it as the reason why you know better than anyone about everything shooting related.
Go ahead. I'll sit back and watch.
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I thought we were waiting on you to post something of value, Bart. I'm through arguing..have been since I said I had no interest in arguing with you. You don't have to share anything.
...and I'm getting those same pm's, btw. Lets move forward.
 
...and here I was all primed up to hear about the method Bart employs so I could try and learn a little bit.

I find it selfish that people would reach out to either of you guys and ask you not to share your information. That decision should be up to you and you alone whether or not you want to share. I hope you do keep sharing because I can use all the help I can get.

Here's the thing...Say that information does help me. I seriously doubt it would make a wannabee like me in to any sort of threat on the score sheet. I'm probably about a half million rounds behind any of the top shots.
 
jimmymac said:
...and here I was all primed up to hear about the method Bart employs so I could try and learn a little bit.

I find it selfish that people would reach out to either of you guys and ask you not to share your information. That decision should be up to you and you alone whether or not you want to share. I hope you do keep sharing because I can use all the help I can get.

Here's the thing...Say that information does help me. I seriously doubt it would make a wannabee like me in to any sort of threat on the score sheet. I'm probably about a half million rounds behind any of the top shots.
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No worries here. I'm passionate about tuners and feel they are a legitimate game changer. That's why I've literally been told that some wish it was a secret. I won't get into what I've read via pm, etc. I think that most people are appreciative of good information. In spite of a little disagreement, I hope that most of us can agree that there has been some good tuner info in this thread. I hope we can keep it going that way. Lets just put the rest to rest and move forward.

Why do I think tuners are game changers? Because at least several, if not a majority of guns on the line at any given match are not truly in tune. Part of what has made top shooters, top shooters is knowing when and by how much to change their load during a match. Tuners are much simpler than that. They level the playing field with the big boys in terms of having your rifle in tune. They won't read the flags for ya, but if you shoot a gun that has a tuner on it, not in tune...it's your own fault once you get comfortable. They really are very easy to use. That puts a guy like you or me, with a good rifle, in a position to compete with the best of the best, if the conditions are favorable. In tougher conditions, the best still rise to the top.
 
No need for tuners to be such a trivial topic. Good load goes out of tune, Move the tuner one mark at a time until it comes back. The great thing about tuners is how simple it is to keep a rifle in tune with one. Sometimes i think people make things more complicated than they need to be, i can make my rifle shoot small with a good load with mikes simple instructions everytime i sit at the bench. Getting caught in the wind is a different story.
 
Well, if you guys want real data, the speed of sound in a stainless steel rod is 16,420 ft/sec
and in distilled water it is 4,914 ft/sec.
There is one metal way higher than stainless, but unless someone is making barrels from Beryllium. we can ignore that one!

And, my background is university study in Electronics engineering and Audiology. Both disciplines have a severe dislike of anecdotal evidence. Unless I refer to my memory for some things, such as my reference to speed of sound in steel being 2000 ft/sec one must remember I am an old man. But if I make a technical statement it will include any references if any one is interested!


I do not claim any real knowledge of tuners other than having a basic scientific knowledge of what they do, but I do take on testing of them in a some what scientific method with special attention to statistics and physics.

If you are going to come at me , fine, just don't do it with anecdotal evidence.

And don't even argue tuners unless you have carefully read the Browning patents!
 
jimmymac said:
...and here I was all primed up to hear about the method Bart employs so I could try and learn a little bit.

I find it selfish that people would reach out to either of you guys and ask you not to share your information. That decision should be up to you and you alone whether or not you want to share. I hope you do keep sharing because I can use all the help I can get.

Here's the thing...Say that information does help me. I seriously doubt it would make a wannabee like me in to any sort of threat on the score sheet. I'm probably about a half million rounds behind any of the top shots.
Click to expand...

I agree whole heartedly and hope we get to see Bart’s system he employs.
 
BartsBullets said:
Judd,

I’ve never found any tuner brake to work properly as a tuner! Pretty much a total waste of time. I’ve tried several brands and though they work as a muzzle break, they are a poor excuse for a tuner. Most of the time the position of the groups changed, but the shape of the group didn’t! Also the point of impact changed way too much for my comfort level at mid and long range.

Bart
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Anybody remember the BOSS tuner/brake on factory Browning and Winchester hunting rifles years ago. The more common version combined the two functions and certainly never worked for me on a 7mm-08 A-Bolt. Reading Mike E's posts though I was undoubtedly making far too coarse adjustments which wouldn't have helped. In any event, the extra-cost BOSS fitting was apparently a commercial flop on this type of hunting rifle and I'm not sure it's still available although Browning still has a web page for it.

https://www.browning.com/support/frequently-asked-questions/boss-system.html

This is a really interesting discussion. As my old friend Les (Geordiesniper) says, we see many brakes but very few tuners in CF BR in the UK, although some have turned up in top-level F-Open for rifles chambered in 300WSMs and similar.
 
Laurie said:
Anybody remember the BOSS tuner/brake on factory Browning and Winchester hunting rifles years ago. The more common version combined the two functions and certainly never worked for me on a 7mm-08 A-Bolt. Reading Mike E's posts though I was undoubtedly making far too coarse adjustments which wouldn't have helped. In any event, the extra-cost BOSS fitting was apparently a commercial flop on this type of hunting rifle and I'm not sure it's still available although Browning still has a web page for it.

https://www.browning.com/support/frequently-asked-questions/boss-system.html

This is a really interesting discussion. As my old friend Les (Geordiesniper) says, we see many brakes but very few tuners in CF BR in the UK, although some have turned up in top-level F-Open for rifles chambered in 300WSMs and similar.
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I remember them well. Definitely a form follows function part. I think that's why they didn't go over very well. I find it very interesting how Browning determined rough settings for different ammo types. I'm thinking it must've been a measure of in bore time. As seen in the video, the fine tuning is what sucked the groups down. I've never seen that video, that I can recall at least. Thanks for posting it Laurie!

Remember the Savage brakes that could be turned on or off? They didn't work very well but was very noticeable. I think it was just a poor brake design...exit hole too big and very little "sail area". I remember seeing them available aftermarket a few years back. Not sure if they're still available today. I think they are a good idea, though.
 
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