Barrel problems

[divingin]

i wonder, with the the ability of people being able to see their bbl's .. wonder if more "warranty defect" claims will now start being made..

I had a PacNor barrel made, 308, 26", Remington varmint taper. Nothing fancy. Scoped it, didn't see anything out of the ordinary. It wouldn't shoot a group smaller than about 3" at 100 yds (multiple loads, bullets, etc.) Scoped it afterward, and still found nothing wrong.

PacNor remade the barrel, which performs more like I think it should. Scoping this one looks about the same as the bad one.

 

[oldmt]

Sorry about the delay in responding, had to wait for the 48hrs to pass and got busy yesterday.

msinc: As far as a trigger pull gauge, I don't own one. This is set at 3/4 of a turn after the trigger will set on bolt closing. Creep and over travel are at a minimum. When this rifle proves it can shoot in the 1/2moa with regularity then it will get a new trigger.

As Nick C. has stated, yes it is a Remington 700. I have talked to them in the past and received the send it in and we'll look answer. Oddly, the morning I started this thread, the Remington web site would not open. Tried repeatedly and created this thread.
Her are a couple of pics. One of the throat in my chamber and one of a freshly chambered 20 Practical in a Douglas bbl.
Which one looks the best?

 

[msinc]

.......msinc: As far as a trigger pull gauge, I don't own one. This is set at 3/4 of a turn after the trigger will set on bolt closing. Creep and over travel are at a minimum. When this rifle proves it can shoot in the 1/2moa with regularity then it will get a new trigger........

Please don't take this wrong sir, I am not trying to commit some transgression with you, but to say you will give it what it needs to perform AFTER it shows you it will perform is something I am having a hard time wrapping my head around!!! I don't know, but it just seems like to me there is something wrong with this doctrine...first off, if "it can shoot in the 1/2 MOA with regularity" what in the hell would you need a new trigger for??? It's doin' it!!! How many bears does a pack of hounds have to tree before you go ahead and feed them???
Remington triggers, especially the "X-Mark Pro" are not very conducive of accuracy. Out of probably 10 of them I might see one that will adjust down to where it is good enough to be on a hunting rifle. Very few shooters can repeatedly produce 1/2 minute groups with a poor performing trigger. I am definitely not one of them. I need 1 pound or less and most of the time it is better if it's less.
Now that we know what this rifle is, does it have the soft plastic, so-called "Tupperware" stock?? If so you will really need to do away with that and get it bedded in something that's for real. Another common problem I have seen with later Remington 223's is the chamber cut not inline with the bore. You can see this with your scope and you will see the throat or lead angles on the lands longer on one side of the bore and almost none on the opposite side. Remington will re-barrel it if that's the case. Remington does no gunsmith repairs or warranty work themselves, they will have you send it to their warranty center. It was a gunshop on Kentucky the last time I used them.
Best of luck, also, did you have a look at that crown??? Very critical to accuracy that it is perfect.

Edit: I should have included this...based on my experience, if you are expecting a later model bone stock Remington 700 {even with all perfect factory components} to shoot 1/2 minute......your betting on something that don't have much of a chance of happening with any brand much less Remington. Don't get me wrong,I hope it does for you, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

 

[Bill Norris]

Not to bash Remington at all only stating facts, but my last purchase of a 700 5 R Stainless .308 24" barrel was a disaster as well. Chamber was nowhere close to being right. If I placed a NEW sized unfired pc. of Lapua brass in the chamber and closed the bolt it would actually scrape brass from the head (see pic below) and u can imagine how hard it was to remove the fired brass from the chamber. Talked to Remington and they said to shoot factory ammo and I would not have any issues. That made no sense to me at all. Guess what I did? Sent it to Zack at Old dominion Custom Rifles to have him re-barrel it. I'm betting it will be a far cry better when I get it back than anything Remington would have done with it.

 

[butchlambert]

Not to bash Remington at all only stating facts, but my last purchase of a 700 5 R Stainless .308 24" barrel was a disaster as well. Chamber was nowhere close to being right. If I placed a NEW sized unfired pc. of Lapua brass in the chamber and closed the bolt it would actually scrape brass from the head (see pic below) and u can imagine how hard it was to remove the fired brass from the chamber. Talked to Remington and they said to shoot factory ammo and I would not have any issues. That made no sense to me at all. Guess what I did? Sent it to Zack at Old dominion Custom Rifles to have him re-barrel it. I'm betting it will be a far cry better when I get it back than anything Remington would have done with it.

Did you try factory ammo as they said?

 

[oldmt]

msnic: I understand that you are not trying to start anything with me and I take no offense with anything you have stated.
I probably misstated the 1/2 moa thing. I have pillar bedded the rifle in an H&S stock that I had, aluminum pillars and Devon bedding. While I know that I am not the "trigger man" that I was 30 years ago, I am still pretty good at knowing where the sight were when the trigger broke. 1&1/4 to 1&1/2 moa is the norm for this rifle. I have had groups in the .33 to .45 range, but then see them open up to well over 1 moa when for no explainable reason.
When I look at the bore and see what looks like divots in the grooves and lands that are any thing but clean and sharp I believe I see why it is so inconsistent.
I get the sense that you are very knowledgeable in the ways of accurate guns and gunsmithing.

 

[Bill Norris]

Did you try factory ammo as they said?

Tried 3 factory loads. Same thing. I knew it was a waste of time though.

 

[butchlambert]

Strange, most hard to chamber ammo extracts well after firing it.

 

[Bill Norris]

Strange, most hard to chamber ammo extracts well after firing it.

Yea it was a different animal no doubt. Just could not bring myself to sending it back to Remington and I probably wont buy another factory Remington rifle.

 

[msinc]

Not to bash Remington at all only stating facts, but my last purchase of a 700 5 R Stainless .308 24" barrel was a disaster as well. Chamber was nowhere close to being right. If I placed a NEW sized unfired pc. of Lapua brass in the chamber and closed the bolt it would actually scrape brass from the head (see pic below) and u can imagine how hard it was to remove the fired brass from the chamber. Talked to Remington and they said to shoot factory ammo and I would not have any issues. That made no sense to me at all. Guess what I did? Sent it to Zack at Old dominion Custom Rifles to have him re-barrel it. I'm betting it will be a far cry better when I get it back than anything Remington would have done with it.

One thing I have seen cause this repeatedly {not on the same rifle, but on different new Remington 700's} is blast media left behind in the ejector hole. Remington folks just cannot seem to get a bolt clean to save their tail. They use what appears to be some sort of very sharp aggressive "carbide" type blasting media to get that sparkly bright bead blasted finish, but fail to get all of it out of the ejector hole in the face of the bolt. I always remove the ejector on a new rifle and clean it out good. The ejector may move fine when you first get it but in use the stuff works it's way where it will cause problems. Best of luck sir.

 

[Bill Norris]

One thing I have seen cause this repeatedly {not on the same rifle, but on different new Remington 700's} is blast media left behind in the ejector hole. Remington folks just cannot seem to get a bolt clean to save their tail. They use what appears to be some sort of very sharp aggressive "carbide" type blasting media to get that sparkly bright bead blasted finish, but fail to get all of it out of the ejector hole in the face of the bolt. I always remove the ejector on a new rifle and clean it out good. The ejector may move fine when you first get it but in use the stuff works it's way where it will cause problems. Best of luck sir.

msinc, I took the bolt apart once I saw this issue but did not see anything there to cause this. Thanks for the info for sure.

 

[msinc]

msnic: I understand that you are not trying to start anything with me and I take no offense with anything you have stated.
I probably misstated the 1/2 moa thing. I have pillar bedded the rifle in an H&S stock that I had, aluminum pillars and Devon bedding. While I know that I am not the "trigger man" that I was 30 years ago, I am still pretty good at knowing where the sight were when the trigger broke. 1&1/4 to 1&1/2 moa is the norm for this rifle. I have had groups in the .33 to .45 range, but then see them open up to well over 1 moa when for no explainable reason.
When I look at the bore and see what looks like divots in the grooves and lands that are any thing but clean and sharp I believe I see why it is so inconsistent.
I get the sense that you are very knowledgeable in the ways of accurate guns and gunsmithing.

Thank you sir, it is very kind of you to say so. I understand where you are at now. Only you know if you are comfortable with the trigger you have and it sounds like you are. I think my next move with this thing would be to try a lead lap in the barrel. I have had success with at least one barrel that actually looked worse than what I am seeing in your bore. I managed to get it to shoot pretty consistent 3/4" to 1" with decent bullets and a good load.
That said, I see there is evidence of slight throat erosion too...might be time to think about a better barrel. Stan Taylor on here is your man for that...have had very good luck for many moons with Douglas barrels.

 

[oldmt]

msinc,
I have decided that all the polishing in the world will not turn this into a quality barrel. It is going to get a new barrel done this winter. I really like the idea behind the Remage conversion because it opens up the possibility of trying other chamberings with just a barrel replacement.
With winter coming, it is a good time to get this project going and hope for an early Spring to find a load that it likes.

 

[Eric Leonard]

If it's in your head the barrel us no good it will probably never shoot for you

 

[Bc'z]

If it's in your head the barrel us no good it will probably never shoot for you

It's in my head that mine wont shoot lapua brass.

 

[oldmt]

mr.big: Yes it is in my head that it will never shoot like I want.
Worked 46 plus years in the automotive repair business. When the boss would roll in a fugitive from the salvage yard that was just not worth fixing, I would always tell him "don't expect miracles because you just can't make sugar out of crap". That sums up my feelings about the factory barrel.
I just placed an order at PT&G for the barrel nut, recoil lug and wrench.
Going to try and work up a multiple barrel order with the guys in the next week and get rolling on this project.

 

[ronsatspokane]

I've seen worse tooling marks in barrels that shoot great. For 1:12 twist I would stick with 52 grain bullets and below. That said, I've pounded my head against the wall trying to get crap barrels to shoot as well. Never did find the reason as I don't own an air space gauge to really tell me how consistent the bore was. The bullet could be bouncing from side to side going down the bore or it could be so tight in places that you are lucky it exits the barrel at all. If you've already exhausted the obvious culprits then swap barrels and pray.

 

[Tommie]

Since you're trashing the barrel anyway, why not try fire lapping just for kicks. Nuttin' to lose at this point.

 

[Steve Ladino]

I have been learning from this site for several years and now I need your advice. I have a rifle in 223 Remington that shoots patterns instead of groups. I bought it new about 2 years ago and it has somewhere between 350 and 400 rounds through it.
I fired 1 shot and clean for the first 20 rounds as a break in for the barrel. I just can not get it to shoot decent groups with any regularity.
I had an old H&S stock from my silhouette days, so I pillar bedded the action in that stock.
I purchased a Lyman Bore Cam to inspect the barrel and was shocked by what I am seeing.
I have been using Shooters Choice for a bore cleaner for many years. I just purchased some Bore Tech Eliminator this last week and am finding that I am constantly getting copper out of the barrel even after Shooters Choice indicated that the copper was gone.
After bore scoping the barrel, I am no longer surprised.
Hopefully I will be successful in posting the pictures.View attachment 1144052 View attachment 1144053 View attachment 1144054 View attachment 1144055

Doesn't look that bad but still isn't clean. Never heard of a .223 brl. done in 350 / 400 rounds. Looks like copper build up on top of the one land in the single photo.

 

[Twicepop]

It is a 12 twist so 69gr most likely won't stabilize.
I have tried 55gr Sierra Game King and Blitz King, 50gr sierra Blitz King, Nosler 55gr BT (gun hates these) Hornady 55gr V-Max & SPSX, 50gr Hornady SP and a few others. Most loads in the 24.5 to 25gr range using H335 and some loads with 748. Cases are trimmed, primer pockets uniformed, flash holes de-burred.
So far it prefers the Sierras over all others.
Groups may start out showing promise but begin to open up badly after about 15 to 20 rounds thru the gun after cleaning.
I feel that the bore just fouls that badly. Not much fun when teaching prarie dogs to do flips.

I have a Savage that I re-barreled (Douglas 1:12 air gauge) that will shoot little tiny groups with 24.5 grains of IMR 4895, a Sierra 53 grain MK touching the lands, lit with a Remington 7 1/2 primer in a Federal GMM case.