Barrel problems

[oldmt]

I have been learning from this site for several years and now I need your advice. I have a rifle in 223 Remington that shoots patterns instead of groups. I bought it new about 2 years ago and it has somewhere between 350 and 400 rounds through it.
I fired 1 shot and clean for the first 20 rounds as a break in for the barrel. I just can not get it to shoot decent groups with any regularity.
I had an old H&S stock from my silhouette days, so I pillar bedded the action in that stock.
I purchased a Lyman Bore Cam to inspect the barrel and was shocked by what I am seeing.
I have been using Shooters Choice for a bore cleaner for many years. I just purchased some Bore Tech Eliminator this last week and am finding that I am constantly getting copper out of the barrel even after Shooters Choice indicated that the copper was gone.
After bore scoping the barrel, I am no longer surprised.
Hopefully I will be successful in posting the pictures.

 

[nmkid]

Life is to short to mess around with stuff like that. Get it rebarreled!

 

[Baddog0302]

Life is to short to mess around with stuff like that. Get it rebarreled!

Are the cleaning jags brass or something else ?? IF brass you could be getting a false reading.
Have you checked the bedding and is your barrel "free floating" can you take a doubled sheet of typing paper and run in between the stock anf the barrel down to or close to the actiion ?
I'm +1 with nmkid. You didn't say what brand of rifle you have but look into prechambered barrels, Savage or RemAge

 

[edwardware]

That looks about like my Remington 700 SDS Tac barrel. It was consistently MOA, but never consistently better. It definitely improved between new and 2k rounds, but still copper fouled remarkably.

I ordered a Criterion RemAge in .223 AI the week after bore scoping it.

 

[oldmt]

I am using a nylon brush and a plastic jag for cleaning.
Barrel is completely free floated. I would like opinions as to what happened to this barrel.Is it just poor quality from the start?
Won't pawn off my problem on a fellow shooter. I intend to re-barrel with a quality barrel.

 

[oldmt]

I left out the brand to avoid "brand bashing".

 

[Mark W]

I always wondered why this one wouldn’t shoot until I got a bore scope.

 

[Ccrider]

What you see on a borescope does not determine whether a barrel will shoot or not. Just information to consider.
The bore can be clean and slick and shoot like crap. Or, it can look like it’s been drug through purgatory and shoot lights out.

 

[Tommie]

First, I’d verify a few things that aren’t bore related.
- Is the scope mounted securely
- Is the action bedded correctly
- Does the bolt handle contact the stock
- Is the barrel free floating in all conditions

Your barrel certainly doesn’t appear excellent but I’ve seen worse that still shot better than what you’re experiencing.

 

[oldmt]

The scope is securely mounted, the action is pillar bedded using Devcon, the bolt is free from stock contact and the barrel is completely free floating.
I guess I am surprised to hear that this is not an uncommon barrel condition.

 

[joshb]

Get yourself some 69 Sierra’s and load with 20-23 grains H335, in .3 increments. Put your bullet at touch and after you find a good load, back the bullet up some to find the right jump.

 

[oldmt]

It is a 12 twist so 69gr most likely won't stabilize.
I have tried 55gr Sierra Game King and Blitz King, 50gr sierra Blitz King, Nosler 55gr BT (gun hates these) Hornady 55gr V-Max & SPSX, 50gr Hornady SP and a few others. Most loads in the 24.5 to 25gr range using H335 and some loads with 748. Cases are trimmed, primer pockets uniformed, flash holes de-burred.
So far it prefers the Sierras over all others.
Groups may start out showing promise but begin to open up badly after about 15 to 20 rounds thru the gun after cleaning.
I feel that the bore just fouls that badly. Not much fun when teaching prarie dogs to do flips.

 

[USMCDOC]

i wonder, with the the ability of people being able to see their bbl's .. wonder if more "warranty defect" claims will now start being made..

 

[butchlambert]

Cleaning with a plastic brush? You know that won't work. As mentioned in an earlier post those photos are no indication of the barrel's accuracy.

 

[Tim s]

I am using a nylon brush and a plastic jag for cleaning.
Barrel is completely free floated. I would like opinions as to what happened to this barrel.Is it just poor quality from the start?
Won't pawn off my problem on a fellow shooter. I intend to re-barrel with a quality barrel.

Problem #1, nylon brushes are just about useless. Get a quality brass brush which can only help.
Problem # it looks like that there particular barrel was rifled with a wood chisel.
As has been said( if it’s a decent gun) rebarrel it, probably better, send it down the road and get better quality.

 

[magic mike]

That barrel looks way better than what was on my Rem PSS 308 and light years better than what was on my Savage 6br. I beat my brains out on both of them trying to get them to group and finally gave up. Re-barreled the Rem with a Brux and the Savage with a Criterion and life is splendid. Having said that, I was told by some on this forum that the barrel on my Savage was normal and that I didn't work up a good load and give it a chance etc, etc. I agree with nmkid, life is to short to waste time beating a dead horse. One quick thought. You might put some loads together with the Hornady 60gr VMAX flat base and see what happens. My DPMS Bull 20" with 9" twist absolutely loves that bullet sitting on top of 25gr of Varget. You may be surprised. I mention this because I didn't see that bullet listed.

Bottom line, you should not have to waste a ton of time and resources trying to get a rifle to group. If you feel that you have devoted a reasonable amount of effort and you are confident in your reloading regimen and cleaning program and that everything else is good to go then don't waste your time and money. Put a new barrel on it and enjoy life. Oh yeah, get rid of the nylon brushes.

 

[KMart]

I didn't see anything posted that tells us if this barrel is an after market barrel or one that the manufacturer put on your action. That would be good to know.
As others have said, I would get some bronze bristle brushes and give it a good cleaning, one more time. Then follow that with a good cleaning with Isso paste, Flitz, or JB.
Give it one more chance, then look for a new barrel.

 

[oldmt]

This is a factory barrel.
I like the comment about being rifled with a wood chisel, my feelings in a nutshell! My first thought was "really?, you willingly put your name on this?"
I have been using bronze up until I got the Bore Tech. They recommend the nylon to stay away from false positives for copper.
I was wondering if I was the cause of this mess, but I don't think so now.
As for loading, all test loads are trickled to correct charge weight, fully prepped cases and Rem 7&1/2 primers.

 

[butchlambert]

This is a factory barrel.
I like the comment about being rifled with a wood chisel, my feelings in a nutshell! My first thought was "really?, you willingly put your name on this?"
I have been using bronze up until I got the Bore Tech. They recommend the nylon to stay away from false positives for copper.
I was wondering if I was the cause of this mess, but I don't think so now.
As for loading, all test loads are trickled to correct charge weight, fully prepped cases and Rem 7&1/2 primers.

Why don't you do the plastic thing after using the bronze brushes. I've not had a false look, but my cleaning method may be different than yours.
Good luck with it.

 

[gman47564]

how long was the shooters choice left in the barrel during cleaning?