AR-15 vs AR-10: Accuracy

[Phil3]

I have one AR-15 in 223 Remington, and one AR-10 under construction (either 308 or 260 Remington). At 100 - 300 yards, would there be any inherent accuracy differences between the two? If so, why? I might think the AR-10 will be less accurate due to the recoil, but then a heavy AR-10 with a modest recoiling 260 (perhaps w/muzzle brake), would be pretty easy to handle.


Phil

 

[Scott Harris]

I would expect the AR-15 to win: less recoil, less violent BCG cycling, no ballistic advantage to the AR-10 at those yardages. For punching paper, the AR-15 would be my hands-down pick. When you compare system and ammo cost, the AR-15 looks better and better.

 

[mattri]

I've never been a huge fan of the ar platform. I get the modular appeal etc, just not for me.

Then a guy at work brought his ar-15 to the range one day and my wife shot it. I shot it too, and thought it was ok, but she decided that she couldn't live another day without one so out we go and buy her an ar-15.

With bare bones minimal load work up and a cheapo 4x scope this thing is shooting sub moa @ 100 with the crappy stock trigger.

That's with a 16" factory barrel, no free floated hand guard etc.

I'm not a fan, and even I think a properly built ar-15 would kick azz out to 3-400.

 

[Phil3]

I would expect the AR-15 to win: less recoil, less violent BCG cycling, no ballistic advantage to the AR-10 at those yardages. For punching paper, the AR-15 would be my hands-down pick. When you compare system and ammo cost, the AR-15 looks better and better.

All true, so why I am building an AR-10 for use at my local 100 yard range? Well, because I just want one, like people who buy a Ferrari in crowded suburbia. Can't let it stretch its legs, but still fun and cool to have and drive. If I was being practical, I suppose I should just shoot 22LR or for super accuracy, 6PPC. But, I did have fun shooting a friend's 338 Lapua Mag at 100 yards. Just the experience of firing that thing was memorable, even if $6 a shot for off the shelf ammo.

Regarding the bolt cycling, yes, it is a BIG and HEAVY hunk in the AR-10.

Phil

 

[jscandale]

Here is the target from an AR15 upper in .220 Thunderbolt that I just built last week. It is a 5 shot group at 200 yds shot with iron sights.

JS

 

[Phil3]

I am more impressed shooting that well with iron sights than the gun being able to shoot that well. My daughter did this with mine. That is 4 shots at 100 yards, .30" center to center. With scope, using a bipod. Three shots effectively in same hole. I can't match her with my own gun!



Phil

 

[M4Builder]

AR's can be quite capable out to 600. I used one when I first started shooting F/TR. AR10's can be just as accurate as long as you can handle the recoil. The LaRue OBRs in .308 are spectacularly accurate.

 

[VaniB]

I've tried different match barrels and stock configurations in both the 308 and 223 AR's. Seeking target accuracy, I've always benched my AR rifles and have used a 24X scope at 100 yards. I will often shoot groups of 3 or 4 out of 5 shots into 1/2" or 5/8" . I don't see one cartridge shooting inherently better then the other as both cartridges are excellent and capable of 1/4 " MOA groups in a tuned bolt action rifle. So in an AR rifle a lot has to do with finding the load your rifle likes to get consistant 3/4" MOA or better.

HOWEVER, unless you hunt (I don't) and have good use for a 308 case sized cartridge, the extra heft of the rifle and the recoil will wear on you. Now, my AR10 almost always sits home while my AR15 goes to the range.

 

[bowfisher]

Here is the target from an AR15 upper in .220 Thunderbolt that I just built last week. It is a 5 shot group at 200 yds shot with iron sights.

JS

Very impressive JS ! What are the specs on that 22 Thunderbolt? You can PM me if you like.

 

[Phil3]

I know the AR-10 is heavy but am carrying it from car to bench at the range, and hopefully will be using a cart or dolly to move it and everything else. The recoil is something else, and had considered either a muzzle brake (JP Rifles - http://www.jprifles.com/photos_new/LRP-07LSFinal_556.jpg). Or, moving to 260 Remington. Or both the 260 and muzzle brake. Shorter barrel life with the 260, but should not be too bad, I hope.

Phil

 

[VaniB]

I know the AR-10 is heavy but am carrying it from car to bench at the range, and hopefully will be using a cart or dolly to move it and everything else. The recoil is something else, and had considered either a muzzle brake (JP Rifles - http://www.jprifles.com/photos_new/LRP-07LSFinal_556.jpg). Or, moving to 260 Remington. Or both the 260 and muzzle brake. Shorter barrel life with the 260, but should not be too bad, I hope.

Phil

With me it's not about how far I will carry or wheel my rifles back and forthe to the car or into the woods. It's more about what aspects I have come to enjoy or appreciate more between the AR15 or the AR10.

Here was my 308 AR when it had a heavier 18.5" Krieger stainless barrel and an Armalite gas block on it. It originally started life as a 24" DPMS Panther rifle 6 years ago. Now I have a lighter black Fulton 18.5" chrome lined barrel on it, and an A2 fixed front sight base. In my mind, the A2 FSB and collapsible stock is the way an AR should look. The accurate groups you see in the target were fired with the Fulton Barrel....NOT the Krieger. While the Krieger barrel shot tighter groups more commonly then does the chrome lined Fulton barrel, it was not frequent enough or much easier enough to do. So, I sold the Krieger barrel and gas block as I saw no need to have all the good money tied up just to make it a heavier rifle too. It is my personal opinion and taste that an AR rifle should be a handy combat rifle. This is why I will never again have a fixed stock on it, or a heavy 24" barrel (like the original 24" Panther as it started life) Again, that is just my personal taste. I enjoy trying for tight 5 shot groups from both my LMT collapsible stocked AR10 and AR15 rifles.

In the end, I have NATURALLY come to enjoy shooting the AR15 much more. It sounds to me like you are using reason and logic as to why you need a 308 or 260, and why you might enjoy it more then an Ar15. You haven't yet come to a natural like or dislike because you're still exploring. Logic and reasoning are precisely how I chose my AR's 9 years ago at the expiration of the AWBan. It wasn't until I've owned all 6 different sizes and variations of an AR10 and an AR15 that I came to definite likes and dislikes. So, it is my opinion that you may never know what you really like and enjoy more until you do it. If a 260 or a 308 is what your thinking of buying, I think you need to satisfy your itching desire and do it. Buy an AR15 of your choice too if need be! Keep them in nice condition, and you can always sell what you don't like later. My current 18" RRA carbine AR15 that I like so much now started out life as a 20" NM A4! It will often shoot 5/8" 5 shot groups with its LMT stock.

But to answer your original question again, all 3 cartridges (223, 308, or 260) are capable of the same good accuracy out of an AR.....depending on your barrel, stock, and your shooting skills.

EDIT; BTW....Of all the AR's that I have owned, my favorite is a 16" barreled Colt 6920. LOL It's got an Eotech & magnifier, BUIS, redi-mag, and LMT stock and it shoots 1". All that and it still weighs 2 1/2 lbs less then my light weight barreled 308! It's just fun to shoot.


My previous set-up; 308 DPMS with $525 worth of Krieger Obermeyer barrel and Armalite gas block.


Target groups fired with Chrome Lined DPMS 18.5" light weight barrel;

 

[jscandale]

Quote from VaniB:
"But to answer your original question again, all 3 cartridges (223, 308, or 260) are capable of the same good accuracy out of an AR.....depending on your barrel, stock, and your shooting skills."

Spot on!

JS

 

[Phil3]

I already have a Noveske N6 AR10 lower receiver and some parts. I bought the AR10 receiver because well, I just wanted a big brother to the AR15. No practical reason. My AR15 weighs a lot, at 12.8 lbs (no ammo or mag), but I don't mind it. It is just a bench gun, I don't hunt, and where I live, there is no opportunity to carry it out in the woods and blaze away. My enjoyment and challenge comes from trying to make a semi-auto AR15 and AR10 shoot as accurately as possible. Recoil could be an obstacle, hence the consideration of muzzle brake and/or lower recoiling caliber. I would use a 243 Winchester, but barrel life is just too short. I certainly want to get under 1/2 MOA with both rifles.

Phil

 

[brian427cobra]

Phil, here's my opinion on auto loaders, type, calipers, whatever doesn't matter, an auto loader means you miss faster than a bolt gun, I don't shoot BR, F-Class, I shoot Precision Rifle(Sniper) Matches, due to injury/surgery I ROed instead of shooting matches since Nov 2011, I have seen absolute hammers of auto loaders/shooters miss shots over and over again, and fast, I have also witnessed a bolt gun shooter clean 5 plates at 600 in less than 10 seconds, AR15 is a blaster, AR10 is a bigger blaster, a bolt gun is a precision weapon, stop trying to make a 1/2-1 MOA weapon a bolt gun, just get yourself a bolt gun and rock on.

 

[Phil3]

I know the ARs will never equal a bolt gun in accuracy, but as I said, "My enjoyment and challenge comes from trying to make a semi-auto AR15 and AR10 shoot as accurately as possible". Sort of like trying to make a Mazda Miata get around a race track as fast as possible. Plenty of other cars will do it faster (perhaps a 427 Cobra )), but the challenge is seeing what the Miata can do. It is fun to see a bolt guy be pretty happy with a 1/2 MOA group and then improve on that with a semi-auto. Guess I like being the underdog sometimes. The AR right now is easily 1/2 MOA and has done better than that at times off a bipod with good ammo. The thing is, my daughter gets the most out of it, not me. This driver needs some work.

I don't blaze through ammo with the ARs at all. I am pretty deliberate. I could certainly shoot just as fast or faster with a bolt gun. But, I take my time with aim, the wind, etc. I just got a 223 bolt gun and my next one will be a 6mmBR, and then probably a 6.5 x 47 bolt, and finally a 338 Lapua Mag bolt, just 'cause I want one.

Phil

 

[brian427cobra]

Ok, I hope you conquer this, no sarcasm there.


For the record I went to Vegas and sat in a real Shelby Cobra, I flew home and bought my bride a new house with that money, the top of the windshield is chin level on me, all my life I have lusted over Cobra's, my whole family worked/works for Ford in Dearbornistan, I remember any and all cool Ford car at family get togethers, being 6'4 is Gods way of saying dream on fat boy, so I drive VW Diesels, enjoy the milage, the low end torque they provide, maybe after my kid(3rd in her HS class as a Junior in High School) graduates college ill get a Shelby of some sort.

 

[pdq5oh]

If you want to shoot an AR15, but want 308 performance, look hard at a 6.5 Grendel. You can shoot right with a 308 to any distance and recoil is never an issue. The rifle won't weigh a ton, either.

 

[mac86951]

If you want to shoot an AR15, but want 308 performance, look hard at a 6.5 Grendel. You can shoot right with a 308 to any distance and recoil is never an issue. The rifle won't weigh a ton, either.

Right!

Think of it as a 6.5PPC

If you want 6mmPPC in an AR try 6mmAR...



AR-10 and AR-15 with equal tuning, loading, shooting will be equal in score on a calm day, dare I say equal to a comparable bolt gun also.

Put in the wind, and its the cartridge, not the chassis that determines accuracy. Range is also factored by cartridge and barrel length more than chassis.

-Mac

 

[jonbearman]

I have an armalite,one of the first available and it shoots almost as good as my bolt gun.I think the ar-10 can and will achieve excellent accuracy.At 100 yds it shoots under a half inch and at 200 it is about a half inch shooter.It is bone stock and it is a pleasure to shoot.IMHO it is one heck of a rifle and the muzzle brake works good.

 

[Phil3]

Is this a true Armalite brand rifle or something you built? Also, what muzzle brake is on it? Armalite has a few. You are shooting 308?

Phil