How Much Accuracy Compromised w/Bipod?

[mac86951]

If you were equally skilled at shooting with a bipod or high-quality front rest, IMHO the groups shot with a front rest would be significantly smaller and more consistent. Now "significant" is a relative term, but there is NO WAY that you could shoot competitive size groups in BR competition from a bipod. Whether you were shooting BR at 100/200, or long range, the consistency of shooting with a good rest is going to be much better than a bipod. Bipods are an expedient; they are designed for hunting or warfare. A well made front rest with a windage top and quality rear bag is a zero compromize accuracy shooting tool. Do you ever see a bipod at a BR competition?

Right, ultimately BR competition was about how to make the rifle/round system become ultimately accurate. It was found very early on that the shooter was the weakest link, so Rails and Heavy guns along with all the new rests etc show how to get peak accuracy as well as Free-recoil techniques. Like all of the others have said, YMMV and it is 100% dependent on your skill level and level of equipment preparation to do well in either.

Practice doesn't make perfect. Perfect practice makes perfect.

-Mac

 

[BoydAllen]

On the subject of 1-300 yd benchrest, two of the three classes that must be shot from sand bags, have 10 1/2 lb weight limits, and it has become quite common to shoot one of those rifles in the remaining class that has a 13 1/2 lb. limit. (I suggest that you weigh your heavier varmint rifles and think about that.) The impression that many may have that the typical benchrest rifle is heavier than their heavy barreled varmint rig is in a lot of cases incorrect. Also, some of the very best benchrest shooters do not shoot free recoil. There are several shooting styles that win. There are a number of things that shooters who pursue small groups outside of competition can profit form copying, but for most, shooting free recoil is not one of them. For that to work consistently, stocks, rests, triggers, rifle balance, and weight to recoil ratios have to be just right. Most non-competiton setups do not fit the requirements.

 

[Bradley Walker]

Bradley,
It sounds like you are pretty good with your AR, but you definitely have not shot the right bolt gun. In .222 and .223 I used to tune up factory Remingtons with sporter weight barrels to 3/8 inch and a little better, and a friend who has a couple of custom 700 based 6BRs has no trouble turning quarter inch groups when the wind is not too bad. Good stocks, good barrels, good triggers, good rests, and a well tuned load are all requirements for this level of performance. On the other hand, while I expect my tuned up factory varmint rifles to be consistently under a half inch, I believe that you can have a world of fun with one that just makes that level. Every so often, when I am at the range, and have done what I came to do, I will look around to see if I think that anyone has shown a particular interest in all the stuff associated with me taking a 6PPC to the range (loading gear, wind flags, etc.) and ask someone if he wants to try my rifle. The reason that I do is so that fellows will know that with the right equipment, that they are a lot better than they think they are. Because the trigger is around 2oz. and the rest is different than what they are use to, I have them take a half dozen dry shots, to get used to things, and after telling them what to look for on the flags, I hand them 3-4 loaded rounds, and walk away, so as not to be a distraction. The inevitable result is a group that is around a quarter inch or better. The whole idea behind a competition bench rifle is to have something that is as easy as possible to shoot small groups with, but of course, I would never take one of these rigs into the field. For one thing, I don't want to turn necks for that many cases, and for another a fixed power scope of high magnification, and 2oz. trigger have no place there IMO. As well as you are shooting your AR, with the right bolt rifle, half inch would be a distant memory.

You have a point!!! I totally forgot that I NEVER shoot match triggers from a bipod...

You sir have a good point...

My bench guns go very low... But like you said my triggers are 6 oz and 2 oz... All my hunting rifles had 2.5 lbs triggers. My space gun has the the most beautiful breaking one pound trigger (John from JP Enterprises fit it for me personally back in the day).

Hmmmmmm... HAHAHA!!

 

[dakor]

What I do is start at 100 yards off the bench and find a load there. I then sight in the rifle off the bipod at the range I am going to zero the rifle most of mine are zerod at 300 yards. Since I am a long range shooter I will check the load I think is a good one at 600 yards then depending on the cartridge either 800 yard or 1000 yards. All of this is done with the bipod and a rear bag. You might want to read this article it is a good one for sure.

http://www.6mmbr.com/TacticalFroggyA1.html

 

[timeout]

I'm pretty much just an old farmboy, with old being the key word. I can shoot equally with a Sinclair Gen 3 bipod, or a rest. I have compared shooting from the Sinclair to a Harris and I shoot better with the Sinclair. Now the Sinclair probably would not make a great choice for hunting, but for working up loads I most generally use the Sinclair bipod. I like an even, semi hard surface, underneath the bipod that is not super slick. Also usually working with two ounce triggers, but occasionally using more hunt friendly trigger weight settings. I have no Benchrest competition experience, so take it for what is worth. You just may want to try the Sinclair out though. And, if you don't like it, PM me. I'm looking for another one

 

[RADcustom]

I personally shoot better off a bipod than a front rest but, I think it is due to the fact that almost all the shooting I do is from a bipod. If I took the time to shoot benchrest and learn the technique that achieved the best accuracy and consistancy, I have no doubts that it would be a more stable position.

It really comes down to what you are most comfortable with.

 

[BoydAllen]

Because a lot of fellows are under the impression that they should shoot a very light hold when using a rest, and because a lot of stocks have rounded forends, and the bags that they are rested in do not fit particularly well, there can be a problem with "roll stability" that makes it difficult for them to shoot well from a rest. Trigger weight also gets into the mix. With a firmer hold, better fitting bags, and a reasonable trigger weight, the situation is materially different.

I see lots of fellows at the range, shooting hunting type rifles, that are not aware that with a good fitting bag setup, that their cross hairs can actually be made to stop moving prior to breaking the shot, and for that reason, they think that the main component of shooting better is to do a better job of holding the rifle still as they shoot.

I have a home made rest that is designed just for factory stocks, that works better than any factory made one that I have seen. The bag holds rifles' forends sort of like a Bulls-X bag. With that , you can get a rifle to stop moving, and have a lot more confidence in your shooting.

My first really accurate rifle was built on a 40X rimfire prone stock, and I soon learned that because of the shape of the stock that a medium hold was required, rather than just touching the 2 oz. trigger. The good thing about that rifle was that is would give such honest feedback about what I was doing right or wrong. It is a tight necked .222 with a Hart barrel, that now sports a prototype EDGE stock, and although the stock tracks very well, and the bags are correct, because of the rifle being nose heavy, it still shoots better when held, rather than being shot free. The last time that it was shot much, I lent it to a friend for a short time, so that he could get some experience with a bench rifle. During that time, he shot a number of sub .2" groups with it. After that, he bought a really fine 6PPC, and continues to shoot well.

 

[Phil3]

If your rear bag rider is parallel to the bench, how do you make elevation adjustments, when aiming the rifle?

I admit, I do not have a good answer for that. It would appear then that I need to use the standard A2 stock with a rear bag. Or have a front rest.

Have you tried an improvised front rest that has the stock resting on a sand bag? If you try a sandbag in the front, just remember that the forend needs to be free to slide without hooking on the bag. This is a common mistake that I see on both front and rear bags.

Yes, but the "stock" (free float handguard on the AR), around the barrel is a 2" diameter tuble. It has a bit of a rough finish to it, but is not equipped with picatinny rails. I thought about getting a device from Evolution Gun Works which afixes to the fore-end and provides a flat surface to ride in the bags. You can see it all here.

http://www.6mmbr.com/gunweek090.html

I was trying to find a setup that provided me a reasonably portable shooting platform (no heavy rest if possible).

Another issue with pistol grips is that when shooting from the bench shooters tend to grip them as they would a pistol and have their finger in the wrong relation to the trigger. You need to position your hand so that the trigger touches between the tip of your index finger and its first joint, so that your pull is straight back. The hand goes wherever it has to to make this happen. Another problem that can be caused by a full grip is torquing the rifle as the trigger is pulled.

I am ordering a Sierra grip that I expect will better position my finger. It is true that the trigger is too close for my largish hands, making proper trigger control more difficult. I will watch the torqueing through practice and dry fire. Thanks for this tip.

On the other hand, with most setups that I have seen, holding the rifle too lightly can cause problems. Shooters tend to make the mistake of thinking that when shooting from the bench, that the lighter the hold the better. For most rifles this is not the case. particularly when triggers are measured in pounds and not single digit ounces. Properly laid out bolt action rifles are a lot easier to shoot small with.

I have found that a consistent and firm grip on the AR seems to work better for me. The two stage trigger on my rifle is set for 2 lbs exactly on stage 1 and about 10 oz on stage 2. Other shooters don't like it, but I prefer it.

One trick that will help your situation ( and most other shooters for that matter) is a lot of dry fire practice. Take you time and do everything right when you do. It will build "muscle memory".

You are of course correct. I met a guy on an another gun forum who let me borrow his Howa 308 bolt action and he immediately corrected my body posture at the bench. The recoil then was much less and the groups immediately shrank. I went home and got myself ideally comfortable behind my AR, recognizing that the muscle memory is key, and much like a car, all the controls need to be set to fit me, such as scope eye relief, scope height, trigger reach, etc. As the 6mmBR article said about Froggy and his amazing shooting off a bipod, I have been working on settling in behind the rifle with great repeatability.

Thank you for all the advice.

Phil

 

[BoydAllen]

Phil,
You are a quick study, and I will be interested in your progress. Keep us posted. I had I idea that I have not tried. instead of preloading the bipod legs by pushing the rifle forward against the friction of the ground or the bench top, what would happen if you tied a stout, non stretchy cord to the bottom of one leg, passed it through something at the rear of the hand guard (or through the front of the trigger guard on a bolt rifle, and tied it off on the bottom of the other leg, with tension on the legs. That would keep them loaded without depending on the surface that you were shooting from. Part two....make some skis for the bottom of the legs, so that they will more easily slide instead of catching. Perhaps a piece of short nap carpet would make a good sliding surface for the improvised skis. Now I am just thinking out loud here, but I think that these ideas might improve a Harris bipod. If you look at the fancier F Class bipods, you may see what I am trying to do.

 

[mac86951]

You're right Boyd. Keeping equal tension on the front legs would assist greatly, and F-class has many ski feet in use with a smooth rolling carpet to try to get consistent recoil. With a ski-pod keeping the surface the same becomes a factor, so often I see local F-classers putting their "mat" on a piece of 3/4 plywood so ranges that have dirt are similar to ranges that are concrete as far as recoil go. In fact, even with the tension method, keeping a consistent footing material will help in keeping tension consistent.

-Mac

 

[broncman]

I have shot some nice sub 1/2" 5 & 10 shot groups with my AR set up for FT/R.
I have a new 308 and a Duplin bipod . Not quite got the hold right. I can literally shoot the same hole and then it will jump a bit and shoot same hole shots a1/4" or so in another spot!


Out of bullets to reload now, so everything has come to halt till I get more components.

 

[mac86951]

I'll add a comment here, I found that shooting off a bipod and even more so when putting forward tension on the legs, that good consistent prone position is extremely important. German Salazar has a nice description in the Rifleman's Journal and says one key point. During his competitions his position is set up for as little movement as possible. I don't need to scope each shot on my own, as I have a scope on the rifle. I try to keep the same cheek weld through an entire string, using only my trigger hand to reload (for me that is swap mags).

-Mac

 

[Phil3]

Phil,
You are a quick study, and I will be interested in your progress. Keep us posted.

OK, I am back, after using a Protektor rear sandbag with Sinclair heavy sand. I used the Harris bipod with an EGW "bag rider" on the rear of the stock. The bag rider is an attachment that provides a horizontal surface to ride in the rear bag. I started to shoot Blackhills 55g red box ammo (what I had), but noticed pressure signs. Another story... My daughter and I shot the AR and found it hard to get the rifle back on target since the rear bag really held the back end in place. This meant wrestling with the bag, and/or moving the bipod around. The bag was not full but it was hard to squish that heavy sand around. I can already see an adjustable front rest may be needed if I want to use this sandbag.

The Blackhills ammo allowed my daughter and I to shoot under .75" groups without trying. Not impressive I know. I also brought along some hand loaded ammo (first time) starting with low loads. I used Vhitavouri N133 powder, Remington 7-1/2 primers, Winchester brass (unfired and not sized, but trimmed as needed, chamfered, deburred, flash hole deburred, etc.), and Sierra 53 grain flat based MK bullets. This stuff immediately shot better. At 100 yards, and maybe half the time, I could do 1/2" groups, but my daughter still does better. laying down 4 shots .3" center to center on her best.

I am undecided on the front rest, feeling like I want a mostly portable shooting setup, even if I do have the heavy sandbag. A front rest is more stuff and kinda wanted to master shooting without that aid. On the other hand, I would like to see the underdog AR surprise a few people.

I am posting another message on load development and something I found out about my loaded ammo which has me puzzled.

Phil

 

[mac86951]

Great job going out there and trying things! I'd recommend you remove a little sand from the bag, or toss it around a little to "loosen" it slightly. If you really want to get custom, use a sock with kitty-litter or wal-nut shells or something approx. that size. I'm going to check out your other posts, but ARs can certainly surprise a few shooters at the range.

-Mac

 

[lpreddick]

i recently shot a 5 shot group measuring .119 off the bench with a 22 BRX using a harris SWIVEL bipod. prior groups were not that small. i use the swivel harris since i am primarily a varmint hunter and shoot off uneven surfaces and my hunting terrain is never flat. i use an acd on my scopes to keep the gun level. the difference here is that i finally tightened the locking nut on the swivel so that the gun can't rotate at firing. i leave it just loose enough to allow rotation of the gun in order to level the acd. a rigid harris prevents rotation, but i have to be able to correct for the uneven hillsides, etc. i feel the caldwel bipods have too much flex in all directions.

 

[Phil3]

I too use a swivel bipod, but not sure why since I just shoot off a bench... But, I added the Pod-Loc, a lever that allows locking of the bipod anywhere its swivel range. That device is completely worth it and takes just a few minutes to install. I doubt I will ever be shoting .119" groups out of the AR unless pure luck!

- Phil