Accuracy: Bolt vs Semi Auto

[XTR]

Can your AR consistently shoot High Master scores on an F class target at 600 yards? That's 196 out of 200 day in and day out.

My 223 is a R700 action with a PTG bolt a Lilja barrel, Jewell trigger, and a PRT stock. All in its probably right at $2000 with out scope. It will clean a 600 with 50% or higher X count all day, and on occasion I do my part.

My 300 yard vertical is about 0.3 moa

Never seen a gas gun that can run and win in F class against a bolt gun with equal skill behind it.

 

[chkunz]

Can your AR consistently shoot High Master scores on an F class target at 600 yards? That's 196 out of 200 day in and day out.

My 223 is a R700 action with a PTG bolt a Lilja barrel, Jewell trigger, and a PRT stock. All in its probably right at $2000 with out scope. It will clean a 600 with 50% or higher X count all day, and on occasion I do my part.

My 300 yard vertical is about 0.3 moa

Never seen a gas gun that can run and win in F class against a bolt gun with equal skill behind it.

My application is mid range conventional prone (aka sling), I have a big target to shoot at. I keep the rifle in my shoulder and shoot as fast as I can. I seem to be able to maintain position better and shoot faster with the AR. I have shot the AR a lot in this application and am just getting started with the bolt gun, I may improve with the bolt gun in time or I may not. I have done considerable load development off the bench at 100 yards, both are 223, both will shoot sub X ring groups with the bolt gun shooting slightly smaller, but only slightly. What I have learned in all this has been respect for the accuracy of the AR, I expected no less from the bolt gun.

 

[Liven The Dream]

At the longer Ranges I go Bolt Gun...
I shoot Palma, the Guys in Northern California are Winning the Matches with .223 Palma Rifles .
Best of Luck

 

[chkunz]

OP, XTR, I looked up my data and for 6 ten shot groups at 100 yards off the bench with the bolt gun I got an average of 0.25 inches mean radius (note that is mean radius and not extreme spread). Comparable data with the AR for 3 ten shot groups I got an average of 0.32 inches mean radius. So the bolt gun data was 22% better than the AR data. These are both quality guns and both shooting the same pet loads.

My objective is to determine if I can get better scores with the bolt gun shooting NRA mid range prone matches. I have a lot of 3X600 matches with the AR but only two 3X600 matches with the bolt gun. Actual match conditions introduce a lot of variability into the data so it will take several matches with the bolt gun for a good estimate.

So, as someone said in a previous reply, the decision of bolt gun vs. AR depends on the application and I would add that it also depends on how much accuracy you need for the application.

 

[XTR]

Application is important.

Shooting on a HP target is different than shooting at an F class target. There are any number of good shooters who can clean and do clean a 600 yd target with a service rifle. The AR platform is certainly capable of shooting better than most peoples capabilities from their elbows.

That said, I don't seen many guys competing in "Any rifle" with AR platforms.

 

[flatlander]

I shot a lot of XC HP with AR service rifles before having my first bolt prone rifle built in 2001. It took me awhile to refine my prone position enough to take advantage of the accuracy of the bolt rifle, but after doing a new bbl for it in 6 Dasher, and seeing the tiny groups it'd shoot with 6mm 105gr bullets at 600, my perspective changed a bit. I've shot a lot of high X-count cleans at 600 with Dashers out of prone rifles over the past 13yrs - if the wind's not really kicking up, it's a real disappointment to lose a point at 600 with a Dasher. OTOH, I've got a 28" Krieger 1-7.7tw on an AR15 spacegun that's always shot 80JLK VLDs real well at 600. But even with a 20x scope on that rifle, IIRC, the best score I've shot with it was a 199-10x. Not an apples-to-apples comparison, but in good conditions, at 600yds, my money's on the bolt gun.

Don't get me wrong - I had a couple of Eliseo tubeguns (R5 in 6BR & RTS in 6.5x47) that were a lot of fun to shoot, but I never got proficient enough with a stick shift to consistently shoot cleans in the rapids with anywhere near the X-counts that I could manage with an AR15. But that RTS in 6.5x47 would kick any AR's butt in the wind at 600...lol I still have a bunch of custom ARs - both small & large frame - that I enjoy shooting. But the older I get, the less I enjoy chasing brass, especially when it's got a Lapua headstamp. And a bolt rifle is so much easier & faster to clean - again, the older I get, the simpler I like things to be.

 

[chkunz]

Application is important.

Shooting on a HP target is different than shooting at an F class target. There are any number of good shooters who can clean and do clean a 600 yd target with a service rifle. The AR platform is certainly capable of shooting better than most peoples capabilities from their elbows.

That said, I don't seen many guys competing in "Any rifle" with AR platforms.

The new NRA rules may have an impact on this. The new NRA rule allow scopes on match rifles; the new rule does not limit power like the CMP rule. So it looks like for NRA XTC you have the service rifle category which is basically the CMP rule and you have the match rifle category which allows scopes and no more any rifle category. I have not tried to understand if this changes anything for mid range or long range.

 

[Rogmay]

I too believe in the theory about less moving parts and a high-quality barrel are very important ingredients. That being said I have a very very accurate RockRiver AR- 15 that will shoot half to three-quarter inch groups with factory loads, but for the same price I've built two, what I feel are economical Savage F class rifles, one for $1400 the other for just under $1000 that will definitely out shoot my AR. But time will tell now that I'm starting to reload for the AR to see if there's any ability to improve its accuracy!

 

[JLT]

I too believe in the theory about less moving parts and a high-quality barrel are very important ingredients. That being said I have a very very accurate RockRiver AR- 15 that will shoot half to three-quarter inch groups with factory loads, but for the same price I've built two, what I feel are economical Savage F class rifles, one for $1400 the other for just under $1000 that will definitely out shoot my AR. But time will tell now that I'm starting to reload for the AR to see if there's any ability to improve its accuracy!

It'll get better on a better diet! Half to three quarters with factory stuff is outstanding. Enjoy!

 

[chkunz]

I too believe in the theory about less moving parts and a high-quality barrel are very important ingredients. That being said I have a very very accurate RockRiver AR- 15 that will shoot half to three-quarter inch groups with factory loads, but for the same price I've built two, what I feel are economical Savage F class rifles, one for $1400 the other for just under $1000 that will definitely out shoot my AR. But time will tell now that I'm starting to reload for the AR to see if there's any ability to improve its accuracy!

Rogmay, if you decide to reload for the AR to improve accuracy, my Son and I did considerable testing a few years ago an our methology and pet loads may be helpful. We put our results in the form of a report to share with others, if you would like a copy send me an email at chkunz@bellsouth.net

 

[people]

Can your AR consistently shoot High Master scores on an F class target at 600 yards? That's 196 out of 200 day in and day out.

My 223 is a R700 action with a PTG bolt a Lilja barrel, Jewell trigger, and a PRT stock. All in its probably right at $2000 with out scope. It will clean a 600 with 50% or higher X count all day, and on occasion I do my part.

My 300 yard vertical is about 0.3 moa

Never seen a gas gun that can run and win in F class against a bolt gun with equal skill behind it.

I bet there are quite a few out there. The sample size of those who shoot F class is pretty small. Then those who shoot it with a AR is even smaller.

Like I said I basically only use the AR15 for PD. When done right they can shoot very well. A bolt will be better but there are lots of AR's that shoot way better than 1/2"

 

[Sniper338]

This might be a stupid question, and I'm sure that the answer is bolt gun, but I still want opinions.

I've shot bolt guns my entire life, ie... Winchester, Remington, Savage. I just recently started to play with semi autos, namely the AR-15 in 223.

Heres my question. Dollar for dollar invested, do you think a bolt gun would always be more accurate than a semi auto AR-15? For instance, if I was to spend $3000 having a custom AR built and a custom Bolt Gun built (with accuracy being the upmost importance) which one would most likely shoot the best. Lets say for a prarie dog gun.

I have both a 3k AR and 3k+ bolt guns. Theres no difference in accuaracy at 100 and 200 yards, bugholes. At about 300 you start seeing the bolt gun shine more, 400 you can see it, by 500 you can see bolt guns are way more accuate. Beyond 500 yards you can really tell a difference, but Im still talking both shooting groups the average person cant shoot if they had a 5k gun in their hands.

I long range steel shoot, ive had my AR shoot 2 inch groups at 750 yards.

Take it all as you wish, not here to get in a pissing contest with anyone for some reason. But to answer your question yes an AR can be very accurate, but at longer ranges the bolt gun takes the cake.

Edit: just wanted to add that IF AR's were more accurate, you would see them in benchrest and f class and in other competitions, but you dont... when you wonder about accuracy questions, think "what are benchrest and f class guys doing in this instance"...

 

[spaniel]

Not awfully hard to build a barrel nut gun that shoots in the .3s. My precision AR is in the .4s with more money into it, perhaps I could make it match but I'd have even more money into it then. AR has a Krieger barrel and Geissle trigger set at around 2lb.

 

[Ned Ludd]

If you want to see how your AR performs under "bolt gun-like" conditions, shut off the gas system (if possible) and single feed. Mine always perform a little better without the weight of the BCG moving back/forth. Although a little more work, it seems to beneficial for precision, particularly during load development.

 

[Brians356]

I notice that IBS proposed trial AR Benchrest in 2010. But I can find little in the way of results or world records. Did it never catch on?

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2010/02/ibs-issues-final-ar-benchrest-competition-rules/
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[swadiver]

If you want to see how your AR performs under "bolt gun-like" conditions, shut off the gas system (if possible) and single feed. Mine always perform a little better without the weight of the BCG moving back/forth. Although a little more work, it seems to beneficial for precision, particularly during load development.

i did that on a Krieger barreled AR 15. shut off the adjustable gas block and even removed the gas tube. trued the face of the upper receiver and used high temp sleeve Loctite to glue in the barrel. shoots real good with a Geissle High speed National Match trigger, but my Savage 10 action, Bartlein barrel in a Choate stock easily out shoots it.

average day for the bolt gun 5 shots @100 yds. seven groups

best ever with the AR. 5 shot groups @ 100 yds. used 73 and 55 gr Bergers in Lapua brass. AR agg'd at .402" for five groups. i have tried to duplicate or better this but to no avail.

 

[Ned Ludd]

That's what I would expect, the bolt gun will generally outshoot the AR. My point was only about wringing the most possible precision out of an AR setup by stopping BCG movement. Regardless, those are fine groups for an AR, and the bolt groups are even better. Good shooting.

 

[swadiver]

That's what I would expect, the bolt gun will generally outshoot the AR. My point was only about wringing the most possible precision out of a bolt gun setup by stopping BCG movement. Regardless, those are fine groups for an AR, and the bolt groups are even better. Good shooting.

thanks sir

 

[swadiver]

i was just thinking about that. with the gas shut off to the action, the AR is essentially a bolt gun. the Geissle trigger is pretty light, but not as light of course as the Rifle Basix on my bolt gun. besides the trigger, what else on a AR with the gas off makes it less accurate? is it the rifle or is it just harder to shoot more accurately? I have shot this AR with my Seb Joy-Pod the same way i shoot my bolt gun. i have also shot it with a heavy sandbag up front on the theory that pre ignition vibration on the AR is damped out by the sand bag. still can't match the bolt gun. maybe the Krieger on the Ar is just not up to the Bartlein on the bolt gun. does bartlein make AR barrels? at some point, I plan to replace the AR barrel with another Krieger and see how it goes.

 

[Richard Coody]

View attachment 1015966 i was just thinking about that. with the gas shut off to the action, the AR is essentially a bolt gun. the Geissle trigger is pretty light, but not as light of course as the Rifle Basix on my bolt gun. besides the trigger, what else on a AR with the gas off makes it less accurate? is it the rifle or is it just harder to shoot more accurately? I have shot this AR with my Seb Joy-Pod the same way i shoot my bolt gun. i have also shot it with a heavy sandbag up front on the theory that pre ignition vibration on the AR is damped out by the sand bag. still can't match the bolt gun. maybe the Krieger on the Ar is just not up to the Bartlein on the bolt gun. does bartlein make AR barrels? at some point, I plan to replace the AR barrel with another Krieger and see how it goes.

Read this. I bought one of his 6mm ar turbo 40's. I shot.quarter inch groups. He knows his stuff.

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2015/05/what-makes-an-ar-accurate-whitley-offers-answers/