Annealing

[Chilly807]

This is what I use, with a "turbo torch" for lack of a better term. It uses a venturi to draw combustion air into the propane stream, made by Bernzomatic I think.



I like fast heat because I get quicker, more localized heating of the neck and shoulder and it has less time to migrate toward the base of the case.

I machined the holder from a piece of aluminum round bar, pressed a piece of steel 1/4" round bar into the base to fit the drill. The aluminum holder shields the rest of the case from the flame, which is aimed at the neck of the case at an angle of about 45 degrees so it isn't directed into the case.

Aluminum sheds heat very quickly, steel stays hot much longer.

I anneal in a dark room. When I can see dull red on the case neck, the cases get dumped into an old aluminum cake pan to cool.

Other than counting slowly to myself (I'm OCD, and everything is about counting I guess), I don't use time as an indicator of whether something is annealed or not.

The flame temp varies a bit from session to session, and each brand of brass is different too, it seems, so time isn't a reliable indicator in my opinion. I go strictly by colour of the brass.

I anneal at every firing, have for several years now. Brass life is good, accuracy is good.

I think Hornady used to make a set of these things that they sold.

 

[Webster]

Sure, both your guesses may be high. But if you're just guessing then it's equally likely to be a lot higher

In post #25 you used 28%, then dropped it to 21% in post #34. Now it could be as low as 10%. That document lists values up to 70% cold work. Do the research to figure out what range you're in, then you can use the correct sets of data from that study.

It doesn't matter what the amount of cold work is. You cannot soften brass in a fraction of a second at any temp maybe below 1000F. I picked some of my numbers from the graph, you picked numbers from the numerical chart. I think I understand the data better than you do.

 

[Bottom Fodder]

Wow never thought I would need a computer and a graph to know went my brass is anneal, glad I under thank it instead of overthinking it

 

[old_heli_logger]

Thank you! No hurry at all.
Take care,

Hey @AlNyhus , someone on here has a ring of fire that is for sale, so I'm going to buy it...
Thank you and if you started on making one for me, I'll buy it too and gift it out
Thanks again!
Steve

 

[Chilly807]

A cake pan with 3/8" of water, the ring of fire tool, lower heat/longer time, tip the cases over when done. The time is determined by Tempilaq initially and then jotted down as the reference. After that, it's rinse and repeat. Over quite a few years and many thousands of cases from .17's to .30's, this method of stress relief/draw back does what's needed.

Good shootin' -Al

Now THAT is something I'm going to have to try!

 

[Webster]

This is what I use, with a "turbo torch" for lack of a better term. It uses a venturi to draw combustion air into the propane stream, made by Bernzomatic I think.

View attachment 1675933

I like fast heat because I get quicker, more localized heating of the neck and shoulder and it has less time to migrate toward the base of the case.

I machined the holder from a piece of aluminum round bar, pressed a piece of steel 1/4" round bar into the base to fit the drill. The aluminum holder shields the rest of the case from the flame, which is aimed at the neck of the case at an angle of about 45 degrees so it isn't directed into the case.

Aluminum sheds heat very quickly, steel stays hot much longer.

I anneal in a dark room. When I can see dull red on the case neck, the cases get dumped into an old aluminum cake pan to cool.

Other than counting slowly to myself (I'm OCD, and everything is about counting I guess), I don't use time as an indicator of whether something is annealed or not.

The flame temp varies a bit from session to session, and each brand of brass is different too, it seems, so time isn't a reliable indicator in my opinion. I go strictly by colour of the brass.

I anneal at every firing, have for several years now. Brass life is good, accuracy is good.

I think Hornady used to make a set of these things that they sold.

Right on. It's really simple.

 

[TC260]

It doesn't matter what the amount of cold work is. You cannot soften brass in a fraction of a second at any temp maybe below 1000F. I picked some of my numbers from the graph, you picked numbers from the numerical chart. I think I understand the data better than you do.

Whatever floats your boat my friend

 

[ELR LVR]

I ran an experiment
We'll begin with a heat color chart
then I'll ask 3 questions

 

[ELR LVR]

Within 30-35 seconds under a flame
When using no protective heat sink other than the head sitting on top of 3/4" steel plate
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1. According to the heat color chart, how much of this case got annealed?
2. What Temp did this case get to all the way down to the head?
---Brass and copper conduct heat very well, one reason why when soldering copper pipe you apply solder to the complete opposite side of where you are applying the flame, since the heat spreads and migrates rather evenly throughout the whole piece.
3. (Alternate Facts What does 572F for 2 hours have to do with the price of Tea in China?

 

[Straightshooter1]

Within 30-35 seconds under a flame
When using no protective heat sink other than the head sitting on top of 3/4" steel plate
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1. According to the heat color chart, how much of this case got annealed?
2. What Temp did this case get to all the way down to the head?
---Brass and copper conduct heat very well, one reason why when soldering copper pipe you apply solder to the complete opposite side of where you are applying the flame, since the heat spreads and migrates rather evenly throughout the whole piece.
3. (Alternate Facts What does 572F for 2 hours have to do with the price of Tea in China?

Hmmm??? I don't get the point. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

What does 30-35 seconds in a flame have to do with what the annealing process for the necks of the brass to get the softness reset to produce a benefit?

For #1: it sounds to me like the wrong question. Shouldn't it depend on what you mean by "annealed"?

On #2: One must first assume the both pictures are depicting the correct colors. Assuming both pictures depict accurate colors, I do that middle picture of yours showing various colors on the neck (something less that 30 seconds, again making an assumption). Then it's interesting setting the two pictures close to each other like this:

BTW, when applying solder to a pipe like you describe, the heat does migrate, but not evenly though both sides get hotter than the melting point of the solder and will eventually reach equilibrium when the flames is removed. The the reason for applying solder on the opposite side when using a torch is to keep the solder out of the flame so it doesn't melt to much before it can flow all the way around the joint. huh?

#3: I guess the point there is to note the relationship for temperature and time to get a certain result???

 

[ELR LVR]

Hmmm??? I don't get the point. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

What does 30-35 seconds in a flame have to do with what the annealing process for the necks of the brass to get the softness reset to produce a benefit?

For #1: it sounds to me like the wrong question. Shouldn't it depend on what you mean by "annealed"?

On #2: One must first assume the both pictures are depicting the correct colors. Assuming both pictures depict accurate colors, I do that middle picture of yours showing various colors on the neck (something less that 30 seconds, again making an assumption). Then it's interesting setting the two pictures close to each other like this:
View attachment 1676418
BTW, when applying solder to a pipe like you describe, the heat does migrate, but not evenly though both sides get hotter than the melting point of the solder and will eventually reach equilibrium when the flames is removed. The the reason for applying solder on the opposite side when using a torch is to keep the solder out of the flame so it doesn't melt to much before it can flow all the way around the joint. huh?

#3: I guess the point there is to note the relationship for temperature and time to get a certain result???

Well my point for 1 is
It is possible to anneal the head/web area (and earlier listed a foolproof method to avoid that)
The fool proof process where using water halfway up the case as a heat sink
will ensure, beyond any doubt, even for dummy's or guys starting out or guys who may hit the body with the flame.... even guys using an Oxy/Acet Torch
will ensure repeateable safe results by using water to ensure you dont anneal the head of the case
-----------------------
And yes you made a very good point
When the flame is removed from say....a copper pipe the heat of the piece will reach an equilibrium temp
The picture I posted of an entire case glowing near orange is approx 1400F+ equilibrium temp
------------------------
Now most of us would stop before that point but
Ya know bro
(Have you seen or read some guys out there?)
Some have to be told how to tie their own shoe, have to be told not to oil their trigger
Have to be told not to guess at charge weights by comparing them to other cartridges etc.
I am asserting it is very possible to anneal more than you wish to within 30 seconds
where some are claiming it takes much longer to do ANY annealing to anything LOWER than the shoulder
-----------------------
Whereas others are quoting charts and graphs of heat soak times of much lower temps than we use for much higher times than we use
such as 572F for 2 hours
which has nothing to do with annealing rifle brass.
-----------------------

 

[ELR LVR]

Furthermore
When using water I asserted a case can be handled almost immediately
I timed it
within 10 seconds
----------------
where on the other hand
when annealing in the air and allowing to air cool
I checked the brass temp every minute
it was still 146F after one minute (too hot to touch)
After 2 minutes the temp was still above 120F (still too hot to handle comfortably)

 

[Straightshooter1]

Well my point for 1 is
It is possible to anneal the head/web area (and earlier listed a foolproof method to avoid that)
The fool proof process where using water halfway up the case as a heat sink
will ensure, beyond any doubt, even for dummy's or guys starting out or guys who may hit the body with the flame.... even guys using an Oxy/Acet Torch
will ensure repeateable safe results by using water to ensure you dont anneal the head of the case

Well yes, if you, as you've illustrated, heat the thing like that for 30-35 seconds getting the head to 1,100°F for just a couple seconds, it's gong to be "annealed" and would NOT be a good thing. But, we're not getting the head or the web hot enough for long enough to initiate any "annealing". The amount of heat needed for the annealing doesn't propagate down the body fast enough nor for long enough. When a case drops out of the flame, the case cools down in an exponential curve way.

The main reason I went to a swirl flame from the pencil flame was that the swirl flame heats the neck up fast, reducing the amount of heat that propagates down the body. And the swirl flame tends to flow round the neck producing more uniform heating as the case rotates in the flame.

-----------------------
And yes you made a very good point
When the flame is removed from say....a copper pipe the heat of the piece will reach an equilibrium temp
The picture I posted of an entire case glowing near orange is approx 1400F+ equilibrium temp
------------------------
Now most of us would stop before that point but
Ya know bro
(Have you seen or read some guys out there?)
Some have to be told how to tie their own shoe, have to be told not to oil their trigger
Have to be told not to guess at charge weights by comparing them to other cartridges etc.
I am asserting it is very possible to anneal more than you wish to within 30 seconds
where some are claiming it takes much longer to do ANY annealing to anything LOWER than the shoulder
-----------------------

Yes, there's a lot of stupid people out there not using their intelligence well. Isn't that why we have so many conspiracy theorists?

Whereas others are quoting charts and graphs of heat soak times of much lower temps than we use for much higher times than we use
such as 572F for 2 hours
which has nothing to do with annealing rifle brass.
-----------------------

I'm sure that can be confusing to the less informed.

Furthermore
When using water I asserted a case can be handled almost immediately
I timed it
within 10 seconds
----------------

Yes, I understand how using water does that. BUT . . . then you've got wet brass that needs to be dried, huh?

I try to say away from wet brass as it just adds more time to my process than I like.

where on the other hand
when annealing in the air and allowing to air cool
I checked the brass temp every minute
it was still 146F after one minute (too hot to touch)
After 2 minutes the temp was still above 120F (still too hot to handle comfortably)

It takes even longer for mine to cool off in the summer as my prep station where I anneal is in my garage and temperature there is often 100°F+. I don't do any of my annealing when it's that hot any longer and wait for cooler days. Typically, I process 100 cases at a time and when I'm annealing I'm laying 1/3 of them on a towel to cool as I do the next 1/3 and by the time I get the last of the 100 annealed, the first third has cooled down and I begin the next step in processing. So, there's really no lag time due to too hot to handle brass.

 

[ELR LVR]

I try to say away from wet brass as it just adds more time to my process than I like.

if water got inside the brass I would agree
However the way I listed my process (leaving the spent primer in) prevents any and all water from getting inside the case
The residual heat from annealing even when left in the water.... is still present
Its still about 80 degrees
If Im doing a large lot I just set them aside while I anneal another half dozen real quick
By the time Im done all the others are usually dry , even after just 20 of them.
The brass is still actually warm when I remove it from the water bath which itself becomes warm from the annealing
-------------
Like I said some people need to be explained things in fine detail
Many things I figure are common sense to me
Its a process like all things and everyone has their process down.
the brass almost dries itself ......
But regardless of its quick drying time from still being warm when removed from the water pan
I still just roll them over a towel real quick and theyre dry and I take them to the sizing die immediately after annealing.
-----------
I have no reason to buy some fancy annealer when I can do it just as quick or quicker
Same as using a power trickler is slower than me using a balance scale, so why buy one?
Not only is my annealing process likely FASTER, but uses no power.
is easier and dont cost me nuthin but the propane which lasts a long time.
Its easy
Spin pan
Annneal
Spin pan
Anneal
remove and roll on a bath towel
dry and done
------------
If someone wants to spend $500 on a fancy annealer, more power to em
I live off grid so every single thing I do I like it to not require any power.
------------
To me....not other people mind you, but to me, yeah I get cool gadgets, I have some if they're a major time saver, but having an electronic timer self advancing annealer
Is like having an electronic pencil instead of a mechanical pencil that knows when to push the buttom on the back to advance the lead...
yeah it's really neato but... Why?
when I can just click the button myself

 

[Dave M.]

E

Years ago I did the same thing, but like so many things in life every one has to crawl before they can walk and run.

The torch and drill method is an excellent way to start. The annealing window is very wide, so don't worry about screwing up.

I'm attaching a paper that Damon Cali wrote back in 2013, if you're inclined to reading. I'm also attaching some pictures, They may help, wont hurt.

Joe

Read the attached paper on annealing cartridge brass and lost all confidence when he suggested to use Templaq in conjunction with an open flame. Hit Templaq with a torch and tell me how useful it is??? The answer is not useful at all.

 

[Webster]

Read the attached paper on annealing cartridge brass and lost all confidence when he suggested to use Templaq in conjunction with an open flame. Hit Templaq with a torch and tell me how useful it is??? The answer is not useful at all.

Don't see the attached report. I have looked at several videos from post on this website. Two videos proclaimed they were experts and half of what they said was 100% wrong.

Just found the Damon Cali report. It's basic metallurgy and not much to do with annealing brass.

Just looked at the Primal Rights annealing video. Almost everything he says is incorrect.