Annealing

[TheCZKid]

I agree with the dark room and drill motor, over a pencil style torch head. I've got an annealing machine, and it's more of a PIA to get things consistent in mine than it's worth, unfortunately. When you get the process down, it goes pretty fast, and is WAY more consistent for me than my machine. I don't have a super expensive machine, so maybe If I spent a lot more money, it would be worth it.

I mainly anneal 223 / 5.56 base size cases, and find a 3/8" nut driver in my drill motor works excellent! Just use the nut drivers with the 6 sided bases, that fit drills, and use the size that fits your case head. Heat with flame from inner blue point just on the base of the neck, until the neck and top of shoulder turn a dull red, and drop on a cookie sheet, or in a bowl of water.

 

[SKWERLZ]

I still use a torch and drill.

 

[ELR LVR]

Good Afternoon,
I am going to give annealing a try.
I am not sure it is necessary to spend multiple hundreds or thousands of dollars on some gizmo though....
I think I want to start with the torch and cordless drill method first.....
So what degrees of tempilaq do I need, 700?
Thanks
Joe

Easiest, Fastest, foolproof method I have found
Fill a shallow pan with enough water to go half way up the body of the case
Its easiest to keep the spent primers in the case for this so water does not get in the case
(IE: Anneal after firing and before depriming
I will put about 5 or 6 cases in the pan at a time
The water acts as a heat sink and keeps the head from receiving any heat

Hit neck with propane torch, spin pan, hit neck, spin pan, etc
----------------
Adjust water level to make for the most efficient time frame to anneal each case
I go for about 7 seconds of flame time to achieve a dull red on the neck and the shoulder just starts to glow
if it takes longer, remove some water
----------------
I use a SS 8-10 inch pan that the center protrudes so it spins really easily with just a touch of my finger.
-------------------
I started off using a drill/shellholder/ etc
But it takes 18 times as long and there is no way to prevent heating the head this way.

 

[Joe R]

E

Just do what I did:
Use a torch in a dk room
then spend many hours building an automated torch annealer
then buy an AMP
then do exhaustive testing
then sell the AMP
Use your extra cash and free time to do anything you want!

Years ago I did the same thing, but like so many things in life every one has to crawl before they can walk and run.

The torch and drill method is an excellent way to start. The annealing window is very wide, so don't worry about screwing up.

I'm attaching a paper that Damon Cali wrote back in 2013, if you're inclined to reading. I'm also attaching some pictures, They may help, wont hurt.

Joe

 

[Webster]

Easiest, Fastest, foolproof method I have found
Fill a shallow pan with enough water to go half way up the body of the case
Its easiest to keep the spent primers in the case for this so water does not get in the case
(IE: Anneal after firing and before depriming
I will put about 5 or 6 cases in the pan at a time
The water acts as a heat sink and keeps the head from receiving any heat

Hit neck with propane torch, spin pan, hit neck, spin pan, etc
----------------
Adjust water level to make for the most efficient time frame to anneal each case
I go for about 7 seconds of flame time to achieve a dull red on the neck and the shoulder just starts to glow
if it takes longer, remove some water
----------------
I use a SS 8-10 inch pan that the center protrudes so it spins really easily with just a touch of my finger.
-------------------
I started off using a drill/shellholder/ etc
But it takes 18 times as long and there is no way to prevent heating the head this way.

Cooling water is not needed. It's impossible to soften (anneal) the case body or case head. If the brass neck has about 28% cold work it takes about 2 hours at a constant 300C (572F to lose about 1 hardness unit.

 

[hoz53]

Good Afternoon,
I am going to give annealing a try.
I am not sure it is necessary to spend multiple hundreds or thousands of dollars on some gizmo though....
I think I want to start with the torch and cordless drill method first.....
So what degrees of tempilaq do I need, 700?
Thanks
Joe

well whatever method you try I agree with these guys.. Dont waste your money on tempillac like i did at first until i learned. i also keep old brass and use it to get setup so i dont wreck any of my good brass. i got a benchmade but i wouldnt buy it again if i had it to do over. good luck and let us know how it works out.

 

[ELR LVR]

Cooling water is not needed. It's impossible to soften (anneal) the case body or case head. If the brass neck has about 28% cold work it takes about 2 hours at a constant 300C (572F to lose about 1 hardness unit.

I have annealed copper (0.164") much thicker than brass cases are...
.... within 30 seconds or less with just a propane torch
So I beg to differ on that.
Having annealed cooper much thicker than brass cases, I prefer not to chance it and having a column of water on the base ensures that.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
However whether water is needed to protect the head or not.............
One other benefit it does provide is...
...It also allows the case to cool back down very quickly to be able to handle them almost immediately
(Prevents burning your hands) to then immediately take them to the sizing die.
Often when I Anneal it is when I am loading and getting ready to go shoot so time is a factor.
(I am not retired with tons of free time you see)

 

[AlNyhus]

A cake pan with 3/8" of water, the ring of fire tool, lower heat/longer time, tip the cases over when done. The time is determined by Tempilaq initially and then jotted down as the reference. After that, it's rinse and repeat. Over quite a few years and many thousands of cases from .17's to .30's, this method of stress relief/draw back does what's needed.

Good shootin' -Al

 

[old_heli_logger]

A cake pan with 3/8" of water, the ring of fire tool, lower heat/longer time, tip the cases over when done. The time is determined by Tempilaq initially and then jotted down as the reference. After that, it's rinse and repeat. Over quite a few years and many thousands of cases from .17's to .30's, this method of stress relief/draw back does what's needed.

Good shootin' -Al

The "ring of fire" tool is awesome; I love it!!! I need one! I'm lazy...make me one that has the hardware to screw on my existing torch and I'll give you $50 cash for it. @AlNyhus you're in business!

 

[AlNyhus]

The "ring of fire" tool is awesome; I love it!!! I need one! I'm lazy...make me one that has the hardware to screw on my existing torch and I'll give you $50 cash for it. @AlNyhus you're in business!

I've made some in the past for pals. I'll make some more when time allows...not sure when that might be, though. -Al

 

[Webster]

I have annealed copper (0.164") much thicker than brass cases are...
.... within 30 seconds or less with just a propane torch
So I beg to differ on that.
Having annealed cooper much thicker than brass cases, I prefer not to chance it and having a column of water on the base ensures that.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
However whether water is needed to protect the head or not.............
One other benefit it does provide is...
...It also allows the case to cool back down very quickly to be able to handle them almost immediately
(Prevents burning your hands) to then immediately take them to the sizing die.
Often when I Anneal it is when I am loading and getting ready to go shoot so time is a factor.
(I am not retired with tons of free time you see)

Alternate facts.

 

[ELR LVR]

Alternate facts.

Same concept,
The reason brass anneals, is due to the copper present, correct?
I can anneal some case heads and send them to you for destructive testing
-------------
Not trying to be a smart alleck here
Just being real.
an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure
So, I use water to protect the rest of the cartridge case, just in case
Just for that 1/10000000 chance the reason I might get a head separation is because I slightly annealed the web and did not take any precaution whatsoever other than taking someones elses word for it.
I assure you I can anneal a case head in less than 2 hours with a propane torch
-------------
This is based on the fact that a propane torch can burn as hot as 3600 F without added oxygen
which is much higher than the quoted 572F figure
------------
So again, not being a Smart alleck, but............what am I missing here?
I am open to the fact the head and web being thicker than the neck and given heat sinking aspects..
when concentrating a flame on the neck/shoulder area may not get the head hot enough to do anything within a 30 second heat soak time span.

 

[old_heli_logger]

I've made some in the past for pals. I'll make some more when time allows...not sure when that might be, though. -Al

Thank you! No hurry at all.
Take care,

 

[Webster]

Same concept,
The reason brass anneals, is due to the copper present, correct?
I can anneal some case heads and send them to you for destructive testing
-------------
Not trying to be a smart alleck here
Just being real.
an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure
So, I use water to protect the rest of the cartridge case, just in case
Just for that 1/10000000 chance the reason I might get a head separation is because I slightly annealed the web and did not take any precaution whatsoever other than taking someones elses word for it.
I assure you I can anneal a case head in less than 2 hours with a propane torch
-------------
This is based on the fact that a propane torch can burn as hot as 3600 F without added oxygen
which is much higher than the quoted 572F figure
------------
So again, not being a Smart alleck, but............what am I missing here?
I am open to the fact the head and web being thicker than the neck and given heat sinking aspects..
when concentrating a flame on the neck/shoulder area may not get the head hot enough to do anything within a 30 second heat soak time span.

This chart explains all you need to know. Increasing cold work speeds up the annealing a little since it puts energy into the metal. If you assume a piece of brass has 21% deformation from sizing or cold rolling you can see what the hardness would be at a given temp for a given time. Looks like 300C (572F) at constant temp for about 10 minutes has no observable hardness charnge. It doesn't matter what the torch temp is it's the metal temp. The fact that the neck just turns red indicates that the brass just reached about 1050-1100F. The case body about a inch below the shoulder just reaches about 400F as proven by guys using 400F Templaq. The cooling rate is probably around 50F per second. I have done several 1000 cases with a torch, I can pick the case up after about 30 seconds. I guessed that the cold work was 21% to create an example. It may be a lot less.

The chart indicates that at 300C (572F) it takes about 12 minutes at constant temp before a noticable hardness drop starts.

To many people guessing at what's happening and thinking it's fact.

To sum everything up: The case body let alone the case head never reaches an annealing temperature and time.

I'm sure guys reading this will still find reason to thnk it's not real info and ignore it.

 

[Bottom Fodder]

I start annealing back the 1990’s when annealing wasn’t “the thing” I did it because I was getting neck splits and hard to seat bullets after reloading a bunch of times. Did it work well I stopped have neck splits and bullets seated smoothly and it showed on the target. Did each come out exactly the same I doubt it Over the years I built several “annealers” making it maybe easier and maybe faster but none fancy. Why because building things its in my DNA I like doing it. Now because people thanks it is it’s be turned in to rocket Science and you need the lastest and greatest because someone told you did. Some say they anneal after every firing if I had spend a bunch of money on a annealer I probably mite to but I don’t I anneal when the mood hits me. On one the Hornady podcast they said they have found that most accurate seam to be on the I believe 3 or 4 firing after annealing but hey what do they know. Bottom line if it make you happy have at it, just don’t over complicated it’s really not rocket science it’s just stress relieving brass

 

[Webster]

I start annealing back the 1990’s when annealing wasn’t “the thing” I did it because I was getting neck splits and hard to seat bullets after reloading a bunch of times. Did it work well I stopped have neck splits and bullets seated smoothly and it showed on the target. Did each come out exactly the same I doubt it Over the years I built several “annealers” making it maybe easier and maybe faster but none fancy. Why because building things its in my DNA I like doing it. Now because people thanks it is it’s be turned in to rocket Science and you need the lastest and greatest because someone told you did. Some say they anneal after every firing if I had spend a bunch of money on a annealer I probably mite to but I don’t I anneal when the mood hits me. On one the Hornady podcast they said they have found that most accurate seam to be on the I believe 3 or 4 firing after annealing but hey what do they know. Bottom line if it make you happy have at it, just don’t over complicated it’s really not rocket science it’s just stress relieving brass

Most of use don't shoot small enough groups to see a difference. The cheap mass produced bullets are the biggest affect on my group sizes. Simple reloading is good enough for varmint hunting. Both my rifles shoot about .400" groups if I do a good job. If I wanted smaller groups I would shoot match quality bullets at GH.

 

[TC260]

This chart explains all you need to know. Increasing cold work speeds up the annealing a little since it puts energy into the metal. If you assume a piece of brass has 21% deformation from sizing or cold rolling you can see what the hardness would be at a given temp for a given time.

A few posts up you're assuming 28% cold work. Now you're assuming to 21% cold work. I know where you're getting these charts from, how are you determining the amount of cold work we're dealing with? It can make a huge difference

Above you said it takes 2 hours at 300C for 28%CW to drop 1 hardness point. I guess 4 min is the same as 2 hours.



...and if you're off in your estimation by 50C it drops 2 points in under a minute



Under normal circumstances I don't think annealing the case head is a problem but for crying out loud, don't switch the assumptions around to fit your argument and at least report the data accurately.

 

[Webster]

A few posts up you're assuming 28% cold work. Now you're assuming to 21% cold work. I know where you're getting these charts from, how are you determining the amount of cold work we're dealing with? It can make a huge difference

Above you said it takes 2 hours at 300C for 28%CW to drop 1 hardness point. I guess 4 min is the same as 2 hours.

View attachment 1675879

...and if you're off in your estimation by 50C it drops 2 points in under a minute

View attachment 1675875

Under normal circumstances I don't think annealing the case head is a problem but for crying out loud, don't switch the assumptions around to fit your argument and at least report the data accurately.

I said I guessed at the % deformation since we don't know what it really is. Your example was 28% deformation mine was 21%. Both % may be way to high. It may be closer to 10%. In any case your example shows a drop of 1.7 hardness units at constant temp for 1 minute at 572F which is a meaning less hardness change. 300C is also way above the temp any case body or case head will ever see. The case body and head probably never gets above 300F. Your example was 1 minute. The cooling rate is very fast. If it's 400F by Tempilaq 1" below the shoulder it's below 400F for almost the rest of the case with rapid cooling. You can nit pick where you pick a point on the graph. A case will never see 1 minute at temp.

 

[OZ hunter]

Good Afternoon,
I am going to give annealing a try.
I am not sure it is necessary to spend multiple hundreds or thousands of dollars on some gizmo though....
I think I want to start with the torch and cordless drill method first.....
So what degrees of tempilaq do I need, 700?
Thanks
Joe

Hi Joe i am in Australia been Anealing for 7 years i use a cordless drill and an insert to match case and i always aneal in the dark. Cherry red slow roation you can see exactly when to dump into a container of cold water it isn't perfect but no problems so far dry in my Food Dehydtrater on 70 degrees until dry Best of Luck Kelvin

 

[TC260]

I said I guessed at the % deformation since we don't know what it really is. Your example was 28% deformation mine was 21%. Both % may be way to high. It may be closer to 10%. In any case your example shows a drop of 1.7 hardness units at constant temp for 1 minute at 572F which is a meaning less hardness change. 300C is also way above the temp any case body or case head will ever see. The case body and head probably never gets above 300F. Your example was 1 minute. The cooling rate is very fast. If it's 400F by Tempilaq 1" below the shoulder it's below 400F for almost the rest of the case with rapid cooling. You can nit pick where you pick a point on the graph. A case will never see 1 minute at temp.

Sure, both your guesses may be high. But if you're just guessing then it's equally likely to be a lot higher

In post #25 you used 28%, then dropped it to 21% in post #34. Now it could be as low as 10%. That document lists values up to 70% cold work. Do the research to figure out what range you're in, then you can use the correct sets of data from that study.

Cooling water is not needed. It's impossible to soften (anneal) the case body or case head. If the brass neck has about 28% cold work it takes about 2 hours at a constant 300C (572F to lose about 1 hardness unit.