Annealing question. Too far?

[ImBIllT]

^^^ That's what I needed to know thanks!

 

[spclark]

There's no need to anneal any further down than the necks.

Depends....

I got into 'annealing' (really more akin to stress-relieving for our application) when I couldn't count on fired brass coming out of the sizing die with shoulders bumped back comsistently.

Stress-relieving necks only wouldn't have solved my problem while running shoulders and necks into a torch flame did.

As to safety for 'over-cooked' brass? From what a former member here reported, after intentionally heating cases well beyond what we strive to do (red-hot for a minute or more) they didn't seem to lose accuracy once fired. Pushing sideways on seated bullets would deform necks but they didn't rupture on being fired.

If they were mine I'd just toss 'em then get on with more rewarding pursuits.

 

[Iowa Fox]

I don't think the brass need to get as hot as everyone thinks. After almost 50 years on my own I'm starting to remember what the old guys were telling me way back. Now I think they were probably right all along.

 

[Tesoro]

The best way for a newbie to figure it out is to watch that flame video posted on this thread. Plus it saves u 50 bucks.

 

[bsekf]

I use 2 propane torches, for 243 it takes the count of 6 to see glow in dark room. I don't rotate until I get over 25 cal. I am going to try 3 torches, it should reduce time and omit turning the case at all. I use a deep socket and I do quench just to stop heat transfer.

 

[Webster]

They're fine. Shoot them.

Someone posted a test with tempilac on the neck and the base of the case, I think it was 750 tempilaq on the neck and 450 on the base. They held the neck in the torch flame to see how long it would take the 450 degree tempilaq to change, the point at which the case head would start to soften. It took forever, something like 30 seconds, the neck was glowing hot red for a long time before the temperature made it down to the base.

I used to work with a metallurgist that is now a consultant to the copper industry. He told me a red color on brass is about 1050F.

 

[Gina1]

Not trying to Hi Jack this thread, but you may want to look at this thread. If you have some electronic experience and building skills, this is a great induction annealer at a relatively low cost.
Precise repeatable annealing, every time.

http://forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/induction-brass-annealer-redux.3908353/

 

[CH Luke]

Another way to diagnose that I learned the hard way.

Using an Anneal-EZ and carefully reading advice from here and elsewhere for hours I found a combination of brass color in a darkroom and after cooling that sounded perfect. Consistently used this method hundreds if not a thousand times.

As covered in a separate post here I encountered problems chambering rounds. Long story short - over annealing was increasing neck thickness.

 

[spclark]

Long story short - over annealing was increasing neck thickness.

Now THAT'S one I hadn't heard before.

So you'd anneal as a last step before priming & loading? More commonly it's done prior to sizing, which ought to have taken care of any potential neck-size issue; your rounds were coming out with too large a loaded neck OD?

 

[CH Luke]

Now THAT'S one I hadn't heard before.

So you'd anneal as a last step before priming & loading? More commonly it's done prior to sizing, which ought to have taken care of any potential neck-size issue; your rounds were coming out with too large a loaded neck OD?

Annealed before sizing. Necks got thicker. Sizing takes the neck OD back down but seating the bullet takes it back out.
All I'm saying is thicker necks was a symptom of over annealing that I experienced. Cutting back on annealing time has fixed the problem that had caused my twice fired Lapua to not chamber on the third load.

 

[Webster]

They're fine. Shoot them.

Someone posted a test with tempilac on the neck and the base of the case, I think it was 750 tempilaq on the neck and 450 on the base. They held the neck in the torch flame to see how long it would take the 450 degree tempilaq to change, the point at which the case head would start to soften. It took forever, something like 30 seconds, the neck was glowing hot red for a long time before the temperature made it down to the base.

About 4-6 months ago someone posted melting a case neck with an induction annealer. The head was still hard. You would almost have to destroy the neck and shoulder to get the head to hot. 5 minutes at 800F there is only a drop of about 2 hardness units. I keep seeing guys post on here that they anneal in the dark until I they see a hint of red on the neck. That's really pushing the limit with no margin for error. You don't have to get that hot to get good results.

 

[ImBIllT]

Now THAT'S one I hadn't heard before.

So you'd anneal as a last step before priming & loading? More commonly it's done prior to sizing, which ought to have taken care of any potential neck-size issue; your rounds were coming out with too large a loaded neck OD?

I only anneal when I'm mixing batches of brass to form one batch, but yes, after annealing, I will be able to cut brass when turning necks that had already been turned. I assume the thickness increase is caused by oxidation, but that may not be the case.

 

[ImBIllT]

About 4-6 months ago someone posted melting a case neck with an induction annealer. The head was still hard. You would almost have to destroy the neck and shoulder to get the head to hot. 5 minutes at 800F there is only a drop of about 2 hardness units. I keep seeing guys post on here that they anneal in the dark until I they see a hint of red on the neck. That's really pushing the limit with no margin for error. You don't have to get that hot to get good results.

If it's still safe then what limit am I pushing and how is there no margin for error? I won't finish prepping this brass for a few weeks, if not months, but I've never had any problems in the past with what is clearly considered "over annealed". I'm just curious, if safety is not the problem, what is the problem?

 

[SheepDog]

"Over annealing" is just going to the point where the metals crystalline make up is degraded. The metal (especially brass) will tear easily so you have a potential for damage to the gun from gas cutting where the case fails. You also have an increased risk of gases escaping the chamber and injuring yourself. Very soft brass has less "spring" to it so it will not recover from expansion as readily as slightly harder brass. It will easily form to any shape so sizing the necks can leave the cases with no neck tension.
70/30 brass (the common cartridge brass is 70% copper and 30% zinc) begins to anneal at about 460F but to get it back close to "new as purchased" you need 700F to 800F temperature. More than 800F and the crystalline structure grows too large for good performance as a cartridge. If you want a good description for the beginning reloader you can find one here: http://bisonballistics.com/articles/the-science-of-cartridge-brass-annealing

 

[ImBIllT]

About 4-6 months ago someone posted melting a case neck with an induction annealer. The head was still hard. You would almost have to destroy the neck and shoulder to get the head to hot. 5 minutes at 800F there is only a drop of about 2 hardness units. I keep seeing guys post on here that they anneal in the dark until I they see a hint of red on the neck. That's really pushing the limit with no margin for error. You don't have to get that hot to get good results.

If it's still safe then what limit am I pushing and how is there no margin for error? I won't finish prepping this brass for a few weeks, if not months, but I've never had any problems in the past with what is clearly considered "over annealed". I'm just curious, if safety is not the problem, what is the problem?

"Over annealing" is just going to the point where the metals crystalline make up is degraded. The metal (especially brass) will tear easily so you have a potential for damage to the gun from gas cutting where the case fails. You also have an increased risk of gases escaping the chamber and injuring yourself. Very soft brass has less "spring" to it so it will not recover from expansion as readily as slightly harder brass. It will easily form to any shape so sizing the necks can leave the cases with no neck tension.
70/30 brass (the common cartridge brass is 70% copper and 30% zinc) begins to anneal at about 460F but to get it back close to "new as purchased" you need 700F to 800F temperature. More than 800F and the crystalline structure grows too large for good performance as a cartridge. If you want a good description for the beginning reloader you can find one here: http://bisonballistics.com/articles/the-science-of-cartridge-brass-annealing

Having done all my annealing in a dark room to the first dull red glow, I can say that I've experienced non of the above mentioned problems. Even the recent batch that wa done with the television on giving me more anneal than any of my previous batches, would definitely not result is zero neck tension.