My chart was not a scientific guide to annealing. It's intention was to give people a general idea of the hardness you can get at various temperatures at 2 annealing times. Since it's impossible to know what the hardness of the brass is before annealing and what it is after annealing. The best I think you can do is to come up with a method that you think is annealing regardless of what the finish hardness is. Probably judge how well you are annealing by the color of the case and how far it extends downward. Then just be consistent and do all your cases the same. This should reduce neck splitting and give you the same tension on each case without knowing hard hard the bullet is actually being gripped. You are not trying to annealing to some standard gripping strength, just trying to make them all the same.
annealing question
- Thread starter bobcat93
- Start date
Webster, I think you are over downplaying the usefulness of your data. Although I would agree that it is not a specific guide to annealing since the conditions are not the same as using a torch, the usefulness of the data is that it illustrate how annealing is not a linear process and therefore one needs to be careful to not approach that steep slope so that it would be difficult to “make the all the sameâ€.
That to me is a good learning.
That to me is a good learning.
BoydAllen
Gold $$ Contributor
A couple of thoughts on annealing:
First of all, it has been my experience that some powder bullet combinations "like" more neck tension than a dead soft neck can provide. I do not say that this is true in all cases, but I believe that it is in some.
Secondly, on the Hornady kit or socket approach, if one can come up with a way to make the position of the flame relative to the case constant, with some sort of positioning fixture, and use some sort of audible counter, I believe that better results can be obtained. Taking my advice on the latter, a friend picked up a cheap, battery powered metronome, to give an audible count. After several hundred rounds he is able to watch the color progression down the neck, but in the beginning hearing the seconds tick of was a great help.
On setup, if you have a way to accurately control time and distance from a particular flame setup, you can use an old case and templaq to verify your time every time you light the torch. We used thin stripes from the point of the shoulder to the head of 300, 400, and 500 degree to get an idea of what was going on when we first set up another friend's two torch machine, (one that pauses the case in the flame), and after that, used the 500 degree, and set the time so that it was melted about a half inch below the shoulder (on magnum cases). Different torch setups would have differences in this so proceed carefully. Our melt went down to where the color line is on Lapua brass.
The reason that the fellow with the machine anneals is more about getting consistent shoulder bump, and keeping a relatively normal seating force. We found that with Winchester 7mm WSM brass, that had not been fired much, and Lapua .338 Lapua brass, that there was an undesirable variation in bump at the same die setting, and after our annealing (or possibly what some would call stress relieving) our variation was reduced to +- .0005.
Ultimately, I believe that if one has the budget, that a machine is the way to go. but if not, with some additional pieces that very good results can be had without one. My friend who uses the Hornady kit, reports much more uniform bullet seating feel, and much more consistent accuracy with his .223 and .22-250 varmint rifles. He is a picky reloader, and an excellent shot, who uses wind flags all the time when evaluating loads.
First of all, it has been my experience that some powder bullet combinations "like" more neck tension than a dead soft neck can provide. I do not say that this is true in all cases, but I believe that it is in some.
Secondly, on the Hornady kit or socket approach, if one can come up with a way to make the position of the flame relative to the case constant, with some sort of positioning fixture, and use some sort of audible counter, I believe that better results can be obtained. Taking my advice on the latter, a friend picked up a cheap, battery powered metronome, to give an audible count. After several hundred rounds he is able to watch the color progression down the neck, but in the beginning hearing the seconds tick of was a great help.
On setup, if you have a way to accurately control time and distance from a particular flame setup, you can use an old case and templaq to verify your time every time you light the torch. We used thin stripes from the point of the shoulder to the head of 300, 400, and 500 degree to get an idea of what was going on when we first set up another friend's two torch machine, (one that pauses the case in the flame), and after that, used the 500 degree, and set the time so that it was melted about a half inch below the shoulder (on magnum cases). Different torch setups would have differences in this so proceed carefully. Our melt went down to where the color line is on Lapua brass.
The reason that the fellow with the machine anneals is more about getting consistent shoulder bump, and keeping a relatively normal seating force. We found that with Winchester 7mm WSM brass, that had not been fired much, and Lapua .338 Lapua brass, that there was an undesirable variation in bump at the same die setting, and after our annealing (or possibly what some would call stress relieving) our variation was reduced to +- .0005.
Ultimately, I believe that if one has the budget, that a machine is the way to go. but if not, with some additional pieces that very good results can be had without one. My friend who uses the Hornady kit, reports much more uniform bullet seating feel, and much more consistent accuracy with his .223 and .22-250 varmint rifles. He is a picky reloader, and an excellent shot, who uses wind flags all the time when evaluating loads.
Thanks for the complement. You don't get many on websites. Sorry if I was a little nasty. I never pointed out that my heat treating was at a constant furnace temperature. With TempLaq indicators you are removing the torch when the temperature is reached and the indicator melts. The torch tip temp is much higher than the temp you are trying to reach. So there is a difference in heating rate and time at temperature. I think there has been enough data on this website for people to come up with a method they are happy with.
Webster – not a problem. I give credit where it is due and I did enjoyed your post and data. Agreed with you on your points.
Boyd – good post and I agree on all your points.
TC260 – My experience with discoloration is that it can be significantly affected by any surface contaminant and so you have to take it with a grain of salt.
Boyd – good post and I agree on all your points.
TC260 – My experience with discoloration is that it can be significantly affected by any surface contaminant and so you have to take it with a grain of salt.
Scpaul – if you are asking about the discoloration, all brass discolor to different degree and color when you anneal it. The color and degree of discoloration is as mentioned earlier is affected not only by the heating but any surface contaminant on the brass. It happens during heating and cooling it by letting it cool in the air or dropping it in water has no effect on this. The idea that you drop the brass into water gives you a more consistent length of heating or that it prevents heat migrating to the head is an internet myth. Brass cools very rapidly as soon as it is removed from the heat source.
Response to TC 260. Did I see blue color on any of the cases I annealed.
It's been a 1 1/2 years since I did the annealing . I left the pieces at work when I retired. I found this article on internet. The article says that if the oxide layer is thin enough that light can penetrate the oxide layer down to the metal and escape back out, the colors is related to the oxide thickness, not the temperature it was at. This assumes the surface was free of contaminants like oil ect.
The colors formed on copper as a function of thickness, from Constable, Proc. Royal Soc. A, vol. 117, pages 376+ (1928) and Miley, Nature, vol. 139, p. 283+ (1937):
color thickness
Dark-brown 370-380 Ã… (Angstroms)
Red brown 410-420 Ã…
Dark purple 450-560 Ã…
Dark violet 480-485 Ã…
Dark blue 500-520 Ã…
Pale blue-green 830 Ã…
Pale silver-green 880 Ã…
Yellowish-green 940 Ã…
Yellow 980 Ã…
'old gold' 1100 Ã…
Orange 1170-1200 Ã…
Red 1240-1260 Ã…
I just made contact with an engineer I worked with 30 years ago. He is a consultant to the copper industry. He will try to provide me with info about rapid annealing.
It's been a 1 1/2 years since I did the annealing . I left the pieces at work when I retired. I found this article on internet. The article says that if the oxide layer is thin enough that light can penetrate the oxide layer down to the metal and escape back out, the colors is related to the oxide thickness, not the temperature it was at. This assumes the surface was free of contaminants like oil ect.
The colors formed on copper as a function of thickness, from Constable, Proc. Royal Soc. A, vol. 117, pages 376+ (1928) and Miley, Nature, vol. 139, p. 283+ (1937):
color thickness
Dark-brown 370-380 Ã… (Angstroms)
Red brown 410-420 Ã…
Dark purple 450-560 Ã…
Dark violet 480-485 Ã…
Dark blue 500-520 Ã…
Pale blue-green 830 Ã…
Pale silver-green 880 Ã…
Yellowish-green 940 Ã…
Yellow 980 Ã…
'old gold' 1100 Ã…
Orange 1170-1200 Ã…
Red 1240-1260 Ã…
I just made contact with an engineer I worked with 30 years ago. He is a consultant to the copper industry. He will try to provide me with info about rapid annealing.
Hi Webster,
Great stuff! Makes sense.
Of course, any uncontrolled surface contaminants can in effect alter the degree of oxidation which then will affect the color. The other factor in here is the type of oxidation of the copper. Copper(1) oxide is red in color and copper(II) oxide is black in color and so conditions which favors one over the other will also change the resultant color.
This is why one can never judge the degree of annealing by the color since neither the degree of contamination or the type of resultant oxide which is formed is not controlled.
Great stuff! Makes sense.
Of course, any uncontrolled surface contaminants can in effect alter the degree of oxidation which then will affect the color. The other factor in here is the type of oxidation of the copper. Copper(1) oxide is red in color and copper(II) oxide is black in color and so conditions which favors one over the other will also change the resultant color.
This is why one can never judge the degree of annealing by the color since neither the degree of contamination or the type of resultant oxide which is formed is not controlled.
It’s a good question but it appears from looking at actual case samples that certain conditions appear to favor copper(1) oxide production.
Range brass that has sat in the ground for a long time appears to have both copper(1) and copper (II) oxide which shows up when cleaning with SS media and Lemishine which is citric acid which selectively dissolves copper(ii) oxide leaving copper(1) oxide on the surface which is why you get this “red brass†question frequently.
However, I have also seen the copper(1) oxide form selectively and spontaneously in annealing when I leave Imperial wax on case surface which suggest that there is something in Imperial that promotes its rapid production but I don’t know what?
Range brass that has sat in the ground for a long time appears to have both copper(1) and copper (II) oxide which shows up when cleaning with SS media and Lemishine which is citric acid which selectively dissolves copper(ii) oxide leaving copper(1) oxide on the surface which is why you get this “red brass†question frequently.
However, I have also seen the copper(1) oxide form selectively and spontaneously in annealing when I leave Imperial wax on case surface which suggest that there is something in Imperial that promotes its rapid production but I don’t know what?
That is a very colorful conversation fellas.. Lol..so can we still agree that in order to gain consist annealing case to case dwell time must be controlled . flame exposure, distance to case and location must be controlled
If we are annealing at 650°,700° or 800°.. For all cases to be the same - and to produce the greatest benefit for accuracy sake we need a machine.. And not wobbling a case on the end if a stick like its a marshmallow at a camp fire. I not trying to come off as disrespectful.. It seems like a few members have chimed in this topic that have a true metallurgy Background..and I'd like a solid answer.. If one is even possible.. Thanks..also I find this topic very interesting and fun to experiment With at the range while making a record of out comes..
If we are annealing at 650°,700° or 800°.. For all cases to be the same - and to produce the greatest benefit for accuracy sake we need a machine.. And not wobbling a case on the end if a stick like its a marshmallow at a camp fire. I not trying to come off as disrespectful.. It seems like a few members have chimed in this topic that have a true metallurgy Background..and I'd like a solid answer.. If one is even possible.. Thanks..also I find this topic very interesting and fun to experiment With at the range while making a record of out comes..
CatShooter
Webster said:
I think it more likely that it is the amount of free oxygen in the flame, not in the "air", that determines the colour of of the brass, or lack of colour.
These cases were heated to the same temperature, for the same time, but one group (left) is dark, and one group (right) is light silver - even though the necks were heated to red hot.
One group was heated in an oxidizing flame and one group was heated in a reducing flame.
Thanks for doing that experiment. Whenever annealing and experimenting with different heat sources I've always used the min heat possible i.e. propane at lowest possible flame, candle, artificial candle, alcohol, lead pot, etc. and essentially never gotten any discoloration other than some reddening of the necks with propane. That lead me to wonder if the surface temperature of the material was playing a bigger role in coloration. Maybe it doesn't.
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