annealing question

[jlow]

The sad truth is none of us can be absolutely sure that our annealing is perfect.

Yes, I know “The proof is in the target” but one only has to ask oneself the question “do you think your ammunition shoots perfectly” to answer that question. Unless you think it is 100% perfect then you know it can be improved and here is the kicker “how do you know what prevents the 100% perfect product is not your annealing?” The answer is you don’t because you have not tested the annealing. Not pointing fingers as I am in the same boat.

Unlike something like seating depth where you can put a caliper up to it (or a micrometer if you are really that anal), we don’t measure the consistency of our annealing. Not saying it can’t be done, clearly not true, just that 99.99% of us don’t. So what is a poor reloader to do? What we do is what we do best when something like this happens; we take the N th step to try to make sure it is consistent, not knowing if we actually succeed.

LOL!

 

[bow shot]

"Any one have accurate knowledge as to how factory brass (i.e. Lapua or Norma) is annealed?"

oooh, that would be the thing right there..

 

[racesnake]

My method is: socket and drill in a dark room. Watch for the orange flare of the canrbon burning off inside the neck. When this occurs, remove from flame and air cool. It's simple and it works!

 

[LHSmith]

The sad truth is none of us can be absolutely sure that our annealing is perfect.

Yes, I know “The proof is in the target” but one only has to ask oneself the question “do you think your ammunition shoots perfectly” to answer that question. Unless you think it is 100% perfect then you know it can be improved and here is the kicker “how do you know what prevents the 100% perfect product is not your annealing?” The answer is you don’t because you have not tested the annealing. Not pointing fingers as I am in the same boat.

Unlike something like seating depth where you can put a caliper up to it (or a micrometer if you are really that anal), we don’t measure the consistency of our annealing. Not saying it can’t be done, clearly not true, just that 99.99% of us don’t. So what is a poor reloader to do? What we do is what we do best when something like this happens; we take the N th step to try to make sure it is consistent, not knowing if we actually succeed.

LOL!

It all starts by getting a rifle/barrel / load that you can trust ( of which probably only 10% of those reading this can truly claim).....meaning that given reasonable steady conditions you can call your shot BEFORE you pull the trigger. Then learn to tune that combination to shoot consistently small given the various conditions presented to you (of which perhaps only 10% of that 10% are capable).
To get to this level, you have to minimize as many variables as possible in case prep, have shot enough rounds that your bench technique becomes second nature to the point of being fluid and error free, and ignore any and all distractions around you (aka -"in the zone") Until you reach this point ...your just guessing.
Then, and only then can you begin to learn what steps are absolutely necessary and which are superfluous (overkill) and you can finally avoid second guessing yourself in your loading prep, condition reading, bench technique, etc., etc..

 

[jlow]

The sad truth is none of us can be absolutely sure that our annealing is perfect.

Yes, I know “The proof is in the target” but one only has to ask oneself the question “do you think your ammunition shoots perfectly” to answer that question. Unless you think it is 100% perfect then you know it can be improved and here is the kicker “how do you know what prevents the 100% perfect product is not your annealing?” The answer is you don’t because you have not tested the annealing. Not pointing fingers as I am in the same boat.

Unlike something like seating depth where you can put a caliper up to it (or a micrometer if you are really that anal), we don’t measure the consistency of our annealing. Not saying it can’t be done, clearly not true, just that 99.99% of us don’t. So what is a poor reloader to do? What we do is what we do best when something like this happens; we take the N th step to try to make sure it is consistent, not knowing if we actually succeed.

LOL!

It all starts by getting a rifle/barrel / load that you can trust ( of which probably only 10% of those reading this can truly claim).....meaning that given reasonable steady conditions you can call your shot BEFORE you pull the trigger. Then learn to tune that combination to shoot consistently small given the various conditions presented to you (of which perhaps only 10% of that 10% are capable).
To get to this level, you have to minimize as many variables as possible in case prep, have shot enough rounds that your bench technique becomes second nature to the point of being fluid and error free, and ignore any and all distractions around you (aka -"in the zone") Until you reach this point ...your just guessing.
Then, and only then can you begin to learn what steps are absolutely necessary and which are superfluous (overkill) and you can finally avoid second guessing yourself in your loading prep, condition reading, bench technique, etc., etc..

I don’t have any problem admitting that some of you have a lot more experience reloading and shooting than me – that is not the point here. A LOT of people have a LOT of experience and skills in many things, but unless that actually have scientifically measured their annealing product and can show they know the exact degree and reproducibility of their annealing, they have not answered the question.

Let me qualify my question. They are not made out of disrespect. If I saw what some of your guys can do at the range, I am sure I will be truly amazed. The reason I ask questions is because this is how I have been taught and learned through experience to obtain answers. In the scientific area, if we simply take the word of the experts (because they should know) without supporting data, that will get us in a lot of trouble. As a result, we learn by challenging the convention. HTH>

 

[LHSmith]

A difference of goals......My ultimate goal is to put every shot through the SAME *%& hole EVERY time, and by getting close to this goal, I can deviate from "x" in the process and get "y" as a result, I can then go back to the original process and pretty much confirm if results improved, worsened, or stayed the same.
I shoot smaller since I use an annealing machine PERIOD.....no maybes, no gray area. Results driven data.
You on the other hand, want to use the scientific process with charts, graphs, sophisticated measuring instruments to confirm case consistency......when more likely than not, the average persons ability to read conditions will make 10 fold more difference in how their rifle shoots than inconsistent annealing case necks.

 

[Grimstod]

Sorry if this has already been asked but can you really drop your case in water to cool it after annealing? Wikipedia says that for steel this hardens it but for brass it doesn't ??? Doesn't sound correct to me. And yes I know Wikipedia is a terrible source that you should never reference but I see a lot of people quoting it.

 

[LHSmith]

Grimstod......go to "Ken Light Manufacturing" website to learn the facts about annealing brass.

 

[CatShooter]

Sorry if this has already been asked but can you really drop your case in water to cool it after annealing? Wikipedia says that for steel this hardens it but for brass it doesn't ??? Doesn't sound correct to me. And yes I know Wikipedia is a terrible source that you should never reference but I see a lot of people quoting it.

I dropped cases into water about 900 years ago... until I learned it does nothing for the process.

Now, I would only do it if I was annealing very short cases to protect the head from getting over heated.

.

 

[ShootDots]

If you are annealing and you get the brass to the correct temp or just above, it does not start cooling off to any substantial degree for a minute or so.. During that time it is still annealing below the shoulder / body junction. Brass, like other metals is a conductor of heat>>>so if you direct the flame so that the shoulder AND a portion of the body gets annealed and just drop the case off to air cool>>>it will continue to anneal below the shoulder line for a short period of time. So I always drop my 6mmBR and 6mm Dasher brass in water so it STOPS any further annealing.. Now THEORETICALLY, if you get the brass at the EXACT temp down to only the EXACT place on the body, it should not matter... However, in practice, this is probably almost never done.. So on these short cases, I stop the annealing so the better part of the body does not get annealed. I don't believe that it matters on cases larger than those very short cases... BUT this is what I DO, based on MY OPINION... I am sure there will be people to argue against that.. That is fine, I will still do what I do....

 

[LHSmith]

FWIW- I put tempilaq (both 350' & 650') on several .222 cases and manually annealed them....the second I removed the torch, the tempilaq stopped changing color....... showing any further heat migration in the annealing range of brass towards the case head is stopped.

 

[Nomad47]

My method is: socket and drill in a dark room. Watch for the orange flare of the canrbon burning off inside the neck. When this occurs, remove from flame and air cool. It's simple and it works!

Racesnake, you don't need a dark room. I can anneal in the middle of the day inside a storage building with the door open. I also watch for the orange flare along with that color change going down over the shoulder. And no water. Annealing stops the instant the case is removed from the flame. Sure, a little heat might migrate down the body, but it is not "annealing" heat.

And, Kelbro, I completely agree with your post on the first page of this topic.

 

[Grimstod]

Grimstod......go to "Ken Light Manufacturing" website to learn the facts about annealing brass.

Thanks for the link. I read it mad it does make a little more sense to me now.

Cat shooter I think your right. And Ken Light also says that it really does nothing for the proses. I don't have dandy supper short cartridges yet but someday I probably will mad I may use that trick then.

Speaking of shrt cases. Is it common to anneal pistol brass like 45acp?

 

[bobcat93]

Personally I would never attempt this process on straight wall cartridges ..I think the heat transfer would be to fast for me to control, and the danger of a soft case head in my hand during pistol shooting dose not appeal to my common sense. Most of my pistol brass is inexpensive to replace, also I do not apply the same case prep and attention During the reloading process in pistol brass as I do rifle brass..personally its not worth my time, safety. But that is just me..the only need I have for a pistol would be to shoot my way to my rifle if the need should arise.

 

[Grimstod]

the only need I have for a pistol would be to shoot my way to my rifle if the need should arise.

Good point.

 

[bow shot]

"And, Kelbro, I completely agree with your post on the first page of this topic."

Man, not me…. I think that this is what gendered the original question. Several of us can tell (think?) that the of annealing result is different case-to-case.

Perhaps we are too sensitive, nuts, or imaginative (I'm not being sarcastic…), but I can feel the difference when I size or seat. Some times, after annealing a group of cases, a few of them feel very uncooperative. Did I anneal/treat every one in an identical manner ? I'll just say in quotes, so to speak, "yes".

Again, I'm not opposed to the rest of the world saying "well, there's something wrong with you then", lol!

 

[jlow]

A difference of goals......My ultimate goal is to put every shot through the SAME *%& hole EVERY time, and by getting close to this goal, I can deviate from "x" in the process and get "y" as a result, I can then go back to the original process and pretty much confirm if results improved, worsened, or stayed the same.
I shoot smaller since I use an annealing machine PERIOD.....no maybes, no gray area. Results driven data.
You on the other hand, want to use the scientific process with charts, graphs, sophisticated measuring instruments to confirm case consistency......when more likely than not, the average persons ability to read conditions will make 10 fold more difference in how their rifle shoots than inconsistent annealing case necks.

Sorry for the slow response but had a match today.

Actually we have exactly the same goal i.e. being able to put every round through the same hole. Hard to think why any shooter would not have that same goal.

However, since I cannot shoot as well as you can, I have to use other metrics that I am better versed in to gauge the changes I make to my reloading to see if it would improve my path to that goal. I would think anyone who has achieve an excellence in any sport would understand this?

The use of scientific process is SOP for just about any high end sport including reloading. I know that some people shunt it because this is something that you are not used to which is understandable as not all of us are trained in these methods. However, having some better understanding and more supportive from your side of the fence would be reasonable?

 

[Webster]

What scientific process. Everything I think I ever heard of was judged by the target. What scientific tools do you use. A micrometer?

 

[jlow]

What scientific process. Everything I think I ever heard of was judged by the target. What scientific tools do you use. A micrometer?

It’s a good question. If you look at my Reply #40, my specific contention is that people in fact do not have a method to determine assess if proper annealing is done - specificially scientific ones. Obviously there are scientific ways to assess annealing as you have posted about but that is not available to us.

My response to LHSmith was in response to his general comment of “You on the other hand, want to use the scientific process with charts, graphs, sophisticated measuring instruments to confirm case consistency......” It was a general comment to a general criticism.

 

[DennisH]

I'm no expert, but I think brass is either annealed or not, there are no levels.

I would do it in a dark room and watch for the necks to start to turn color to make sure they are annealed.

Do you turn necks?

I have been annealing for 2 years in a dark room. I used templac in the beginning just to verify the brass neck was getting hot enough. It was melting the templac.

Now I anneal in a dark room, as soon as I see a pinch of orange, I drop the case in the pan.

If I bought an annealer, it would be a BenchSource.

Dennis