Roperboy87
Silver $$ Contributor
Along for the ride
AMP vs Flame Group Sizes
- Thread starter rijndael
- Start date
bozo699
Gold $$ Contributor
Braxton,
Leave the spacesuit, gloves and bulletproof vest off, wear safety glasses and you will get a lot more support and taken more seriously. I wish you well on your YouTube series. I’m a big believer in annealing. I have two Ken Lights they work well and I’ve shot my smallest groups using them. I’m interested in your test if done correctly. If you’re worried about rust on your equipment wipe it off when done.
Good luck
Wayne
its literally a gunsmithing apron, just thick cordura, not a bulletproof vest......again, what do you want to be wearing if a tube of primers goes off? I'm an ICU nurse, so wearing ridiculous PPE all the time is something I am used to
if you think thats ridiculous you should see what I wear when I mow the grass
i have bad allergies, wearing a silly mask for 2 hours sure beats a week of dealing with severe allergies!and thank you sir, I think it will be a fun test. I am really curious to see the seating force graphs on the unannealed brass, I wonder if each consecutive firing steps up incrementally or its kinda like a logarithmic curve and plateaus off at some point and stabilizes.
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Rather than virgin brass that take a few firings to get fully expanded, what if a guy has a batch of brass that has a good history of say 10 reloads on them, a shooter should know that brass pretty well. So of those, take twenty cases that shoot almost exactly the same then anneal ten with flame and ten with the AMP over the next few loadings than compare results side by side on paper also chronograph data.
Maybe I’m wrong ..IDK I’ve been wrong before too …
Maybe I’m wrong ..IDK I’ve been wrong before too …
Cfshooter
Silver $$ Contributor
Problem is some people never even get 10 loads on brass. Every piece of brass starts off as new though.Rather than virgin brass that take a few firings to get fully expanded, what if a guy has a batch of brass that has a good history of say 10 reloads on them, a shooter should know that brass pretty well. So of those, take twenty cases that shoot almost exactly the same then anneal ten with flame and ten with the AMP over the next few loadings than compare results side by side on paper also chronograph data.
Maybe I’m wrong ..IDK I’ve been wrong before too …
R.Morehouse
Gold $$ Contributor
I am selfishly interested in your findings with the Alpha Dasher brass and if you are going to "cook" pieces with the Aztec setting in the AMP. If you do, please "cook" more after 5 and 10 firings and post the changes in the Aztec settings. I use an AMP with this brass but I don't have one with Aztec, that is my curiosity......Best Of Luck.....And Thanks
Regards
Rick
a
my dasher though, the brass is actually perfectly matched to the chamber. alpha reamer with alpha brass as headspace gauge. i will actually need to bump back 1-2 thou on virgin to get it freely close..so it shouldnt need fireformed
i know exactly what you mean, i am actually at that same exact point with my 223 brass....only problem is that gun is only good for a solid 1/2 moa and it does have some bad days (factory gun)...really want to use something with more precision potential so i dont skew data.Rather than virgin brass that take a few firings to get fully expanded, what if a guy has a batch of brass that has a good history of say 10 reloads on them, a shooter should know that brass pretty well. So of those, take twenty cases that shoot almost exactly the same then anneal ten with flame and ten with the AMP over the next few loadings than compare results side by side on paper also chronograph data.
Maybe I’m wrong ..IDK I’ve been wrong before too …
my dasher though, the brass is actually perfectly matched to the chamber. alpha reamer with alpha brass as headspace gauge. i will actually need to bump back 1-2 thou on virgin to get it freely close..so it shouldnt need fireformed
i plan on doing a few cooking tests, ill mark that one down to do as well!! thank you sir
A good reloader should have no issues getting 10 loadings on good brass, also new brass isn’t formed nor have a history , meaning you don’t know how it shoots therefore nothing to compare results against equaling invalid test beyond seating pressure, which means very little.
All these tests have already been done anyways.
Added~ I would never discourage testing of course.
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my test is looking at mainly seating pressure and springback measurements, but if i need to shoot them to get measurements i might as well record groups and the other stuff as well.
as far as I know I have never seen anyone plot out seating force graphs over the life of the brass on the same graph.
i have seen some plots of annealed vs not annealed, but they were just one time plots, not over the life of the brass to see how well annealing/not annealing maintain consistency.
i'm mostly curious to see how non annealed brass acts, and if after say 3/4 firings the seating force plateaus and then maintains seating force consistency.
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The problem is that seating force and spring back doesn’t mean much on paper, I can change seating force by reducing friction with a $2 nylon brush. groups are what matters, in other words.
The target is King.
Just to clarify, I’m not discouraging testing I’m suggesting you bring some meaningful results beyond Excell spreadsheets.
The target is King.
Just to clarify, I’m not discouraging testing I’m suggesting you bring some meaningful results beyond Excell spreadsheets.
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meaningful results from me on paper wouldn't mean much as i'm not an accomplished shooter. i'm not here to tell anyone what to do or what not to do.
i'm just here to provide some data and different angles on testing that might help people answer some questions they have. if not, then oh well, its testing that i personally haven't seen yet and would like some answers to myself.
from what you are saying, i'm taking it you don't anneal?
I’m not anti annealing nor does it matter what path I’ve chosen for the set up I’m using, I’m pro-testing beyond spread sheets using brass that has a history of shooting repeatably well.
Bring all the data you want but don’t leave out the most important part.
Bring all the data you want but don’t leave out the most important part.
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Too much stuff on internet. I just listenen to the top SR benchrest HOF guys. This eliminates a lot of this is what I do by guys that cannot compete. Many of the things the top shooters do is too expensive for my neeeds. I just pay attension to what is practical for me to shoot varmints out to about 400 yards. I only count sucess by how many GH I eliminate with one shot. Both my rifles shoot about .350" with good bullets. I don't sort or measure anything except OAL.
Not annealing related but compare this $20 scale to some of the uber spendy ones. I have a $120 digital scale but it only goes out to 0.1 grains not 0.02.
I ran some 30-30 loads and, yes 5 shots isn't significant, but i managed an ES of 1 and an SD of 0.53 with it for 5 shots. Weighed brass, primer, bullet, and charge with it.
Pete Wass
Gold $$ Contributor
I use to be a partner in a Ken Light flame machine. I never liked the way the brass looked when finished. Along comes the Salt Bath System. I bought the components and annealed for a couple of years with that. Didn't like the salt residue and never felt I was getting consistent annealing. A couple of years ago I sez to myself, "every penny you have saved belongs to the nursing home so why not buy what you want while you can still enjoy it". First came the AMP. I really like no flame or torches to mess with. I have nothing bad to say about it. For me, its simply NEAT and easy to use.
why do we anneal? we anneal because we want to restore the brass to its state of original hardness from the factory.
why do we do want this? extend brass life, consistent springback (shoulder bump/neck tension) everytime, and consistent bullet seating forces. we want the brass to act the same before and after firing, everytime.
I think most people believe that keeping these factors consistent is conducive towards precision, therefore expect to achieve this through annealing.
How will annealing potentially show a difference on target? through keeping these factors (in which we can measure) consistently everytime. The flame isn't doing something else magical to the brass (that we cant measure) that makes it somehow change the way it makes a difference on the target.
This is why obtaining these measurements is the best way IMO to test annealing vs not annealing.
i'm just trying to explain my rationale as to why it makes sense in my mind, not trying to school anyone lolThanks for the schooling. I bow to your insight..
Staying on the thread topic, the question was how AMP or Flame annealing affected group sizes not neck tension or shoulder bumping.
But just to add a few thoughts, I don’t anneal or not anneal for any of the reasons suggested by our good friend Braxton.
I follow a slightly different path. Perhaps a quote from a different source can explain it better. I hope he doesn’t mind.. if so I apologize ..
But just to add a few thoughts, I don’t anneal or not anneal for any of the reasons suggested by our good friend Braxton.
I follow a slightly different path. Perhaps a quote from a different source can explain it better. I hope he doesn’t mind.. if so I apologize ..
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