Advice for Bryan Litz on barrel tuners.

[Tim Singleton]

There may just be some things that are of no real use to average Joe and his hunting rifle.
A 2oz jewel trigger a fixed 40x scope or a tuner

 

[Jeff Porter]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought fclass shooting only allowed 2 sighters? Or is that only ftr?

See Rule book 9.2b and 17.5
Depends on the match bulletin but unlimited sighters within a block time limit is common at the first stage in matches I shoot sling along side of the F'ers. (i.e. you have 25 minute for unlimited sighters and 20 shots for record. ) Subsequent stages are two sighters only. I shoot in four different states so it is not just one club that allows that.

 

[Curious]

You know Curious, you are not a contributor to the forum, hide behind an alias, and outside of your prolific rants, have not demonstrated why you are a credible authority to criticize Litz.

You have just earned my first "ignore".

Its a shame Ive found my way onto your ignore list as you will have to continue living in your state of ignorance, hopefully someone will enlighten you at some point.

I am far from being alone in criticising Bryan Litz for his tuner test or his attitude to barrel tuners in general, there are lots of well respected shooters and rifle builders who feel he doesnt understand them and so tested them badly, Im just the guy who started a discussion about it. It is widely agreed among tuner experts that his method of testing was flawed and so were his results, that isnt my fault, Im just pointing it out.

 

[Curious]

I have made a hobby of trying to help shooters improve their results. Generally speaking it is what they "know" that is the biggest problem. Do you really think that Mr. Litz is looking for advice after publishing his study? I have not seen any indication that that is the case. As far as others are concerned, one can only help people to the extent that they are willing to change what they are doing. In many cases fellows want improved results but do not want to do what is needed to achieve them. No one can do anything about that. YouTube is a double edged sword. If you have enough background to sort good advice from bad it is an excellent resource. Many lack that, and are lead astray by videos that lead them in the wrong direction. Those who use are pleased with the results that they experience using tuners in competition already know how to tune a load without one, know how to shoot, have excellent rifles and equipment, and are fully aware of the importance of monitoring the wind as they shoot. Their tuners are more icing on the cake than a requirement to win. I have tested several tuners, and IMO they work, but none of them will compensate for poor reading of wind flags, and for many including myself, that is our major limiting factor. One cannot buy ones way out of that.

Cant argue with the majority of what you say sir other than to point out my original post was to try and help educate others away from a misguided opinion of a well respected shooter in Bryan Litz.

He seems to like the truth and the science behind what we all enjoy yet he approached his tuner test in a terrible way like he wanted it to fail. I was hoping a thread relating to giving Bryan advice would actually give others who need advice the help and to enlighten them to his wrong doings in this instance.

I hope at some point Bryan is open minded enough to revisit tuners after seeking help in understanding them and their various applications but thats something I have no control over.

 

[Curious]

Do I have it right that a tuner can't make a small group from a load that shoots big groups? E.g., make groups less than 1/2 MOA from a load that shoots 2 MOA?

In my own testing on various rifle and various ammo types I would say a tuner can shrink group sizes in the same way powder charge weight testing can. Even in poor quality ammo a tuner can half original group sizes or better.

Factory ammo in any gun is a lottery, if the fixed charge weight is right in the middle of a scatter node it might still tune down some but often wont repeat and often will be erratic. If its in some stage of an accuracy node it can be very rewarding to see a tuner bring down group sizes to a very useable level. Ive tuned match grade ammo to be as good as many of my home loads or Ive been able to bring the group sizes of hunting ammo down to much more useable levels in sporting rifles.

The problem is knowing what is and isnt tuneable.

If I take a box of factory ammo and try to tune it I will first shoot 3 x 3 shot groups with the tuner in the zero position, if the POI of these groups isnt stable I expect it wont tune well and thats pretty much the case. If the POI is stable then if the groups are big they can usually be made considerably smaller and then repeat.

Its all down to the load your having to work with and where on the spectrum of scatter or accuracy it is.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

In my own testing on various rifle and various ammo types I would say a tuner can shrink group sizes in the same way powder charge weight testing can. Even in poor quality ammo a tuner can half original group sizes or better.

Factory ammo in any gun is a lottery, if the fixed charge weight is right in the middle of a scatter node it might still tune down some but often wont repeat and often will be erratic. If its in some stage of an accuracy node it can be very rewarding to see a tuner bring down group sizes to a very useable level. Ive tuned match grade ammo to be as good as many of my home loads or Ive been able to bring the group sizes of hunting ammo down to much more useable levels in sporting rifles.

The problem is knowing what is and isnt tuneable.

If I take a box of factory ammo and try to tune it I will first shoot 3 x 3 shot groups with the tuner in the zero position, if the POI of these groups isnt stable I expect it wont tune well and thats pretty much the case. If the POI is stable then if the groups are big they can usually be made considerably smaller and then repeat.

Its all down to the load your having to work with and where on the spectrum of scatter or accuracy it is.

I agree with pretty much all of that. But where is your advice to Brian in how he tests tuners, if there is a next time? Methodology...something. Come on and jump in. Your last couple of posts have been civil. They've just lacked substance on a subject you claim to know something about..or at least, have had success with. And wasn't the point of this thread to help Brian Litz with something you claim to have some knowledge of?

 

[davidjoe]

Bryan is pretty darn consistent across the years, on crediting our very rigid barrels for some things not 100% accepted. It’s not new.

He had written about nodes and tuners; I mentioned, supportively of free and candid conversation here, in this post in 2019, that his views on nodes and tuners run the risk of mob mentality and being branded heretical.

It’s alright for guys to have and share varying ideas on how to try to keep the shots centered, there’s more than one way. We don’t have to let long, giant barrels hang unsupported by one tiny stub on the end, for example, and years back blocking a barrel and unitizing the gun was popular, if a lot of work.


Post in thread 'Barrel tuner effect(s)'
https://forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/barrel-tuner-effect-s.3889248/post-37577375

 

[Curious]

I agree with pretty much all of that. But where is your advice to Brian in how he tests tuners, if there is a next time? Methodology...something. Come on and jump in. Your last couple of posts have been civil. They've just lacked substance on a subject you claim to know something about..or at least, have had success with. And wasn't the point of this thread to help Brian Litz with something you claim to have some knowledge of?

The point of me starting this thread was in the hope that collectively people with knowledge of working with barrel tuners would share their findings and experiences. So far Im the only one who has ventured beyond your and the SRBR opinion that you cant tune a sows ear into any kind of silk purse which is wrong and Im glad you acknowledge that now.

As for elaborating further? I will follow your lead, the stage is yours!

 

[BP1]

Winter is coming on boys! Just keep it civil so we all can learn something. Thanks

 

[BoydAllen]

Cant argue with the majority of what you say sir other than to point out my original post was to try and help educate others away from a misguided opinion of a well respected shooter in Bryan Litz.

He seems to like the truth and the science behind what we all enjoy yet he approached his tuner test in a terrible way like he wanted it to fail. I was hoping a thread relating to giving Bryan advice would actually give others who need advice the help and to enlighten them to his wrong doings in this instance.

I hope at some point Bryan is open minded enough to revisit tuners after seeking help in understanding them and their various applications but thats something I have no control over.

Worthy goal

 

[D Coots]

Thanks Tim.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

The point of me starting this thread was in the hope that collectively people with knowledge of working with barrel tuners would share their findings and experiences. So far Im the only one who has ventured beyond your and the SRBR opinion that you cant tune a sows ear into any kind of silk purse which is wrong and Im glad you acknowledge that now.

As for elaborating further? I will follow your lead, the stage is yours!

Sighhhh....well, if that's what your take is on what I've said..OK, if you say so.
And near zero of what I have said is limited by distance. Not short range, but any range. The test target was fired at 100, but that's intentional to minimize wind..for any distance.

 

[diego-ted]

A simple explanation on tuners the way i use them- lets say im shooting zeroes and the temp heats up 10deg. I wont be shooting zeroes at the next relay unless i change my load. Lets say i change the load but not enough because the target crew had a broke cable and it took 30mins to repair, now my load is off. I go to the line, shoot 2 sighters, move my tuner out one number and fire 2 more. If they are worse then i go in 2 numbers. One way or the other will get it back in tune. Now lets say im shooting zeroes, load that load up and go to a match next month. Doubtful that load will shoot zeroes even with 2-3 marks each way but i can get it better than without a tuner. Shooters can do the same thing with powder, neck tension, and seating depth, but you cant really do that in the heat of the moment when commence fire gets called.

Spot on.

 

[wk4036]

OK thats fair enough.

So please tell me how to tune a 6PPC BR gun using one of your tuners from start to finish.

I dont say that flippantly, Im genuinely interested to know.

Something that occurs to me with regard to SRBR though is you guys seem to develop the load in a conventional fashion and then use the tuner to make micro adjustments to maintain the tune. To me thats not being used as a tuner as such, thats more a micro adjuster that allows small adjustments to an already good tune, please correct me if Im wrong on that. I appreciate we could get lost here in semantics but Im sure you catch my drift?

For something to be called a tuner I would expect it to make a considerable difference to the method of load development itself, say in the way it can effect factory ammo both CF and rimfire?

ps, I have one of your tuners by the way in my workshop, theres a lot of work gone into them compared to others.

If you ever get a chance to talk to Mr. Ezell personally about how to use his tuners it's a real "Shut up and listen" affair. I learned more than I thought possible and forgot just as much.
I purchased a used rifle from him that had one of his tuners on it and never imagined it came with an hour long phone tutorial.
Not at all trying to start an argument just sharing my experience.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

If you ever get a chance to talk to Mr. Ezell personally about how to use his tuners it's a real "Shut up and listen" affair. I learned more than I thought possible and forgot just as much.
I purchased a used rifle from him that had one of his tuners on it and never imagined it came with an hour long phone tutorial.
Not at all trying to start an argument just sharing my experience.

I hope that's not as negative as it sounds. Happy to help but I'm sorry if I came across that way.

 

[wk4036]

I hope that's not as negative as it sounds. Happy to help but I'm sorry if I came across that way.

Not negative at all Mike but meant just the opposite, it's a quote from my Dad that I use often.
When I was young he once grabbed me by the ear and took me aside and gave me a talking to about when to shut up and listen and when to talk.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Not negative at all Mike but meant just the opposite, it's a quote from my Dad that I use often.
When I was young he once grabbed me by the ear and took me aside and gave me a talking to about when to shut up and listen and when to talk.

Thank you for the clarification. I didn't think there was a problem when we spoke. Glad to hear it.

 

[wk4036]

Thank you for the clarification. I didn't think there was a problem when we spoke. Glad to hear it.

I do have a question, is there a simple explanation to the sine wave of groups in the pic and what it's telling us and how to use what we are seeing?

 

[Beiruty]

The point of me starting this thread was in the hope that collectively people with knowledge of working with barrel tuners would share their findings and experiences. So far Im the only one who has ventured beyond your and the SRBR opinion that you cant tune a sows ear into any kind of silk purse which is wrong and Im glad you acknowledge that now.

As for elaborating further? I will follow your lead, the stage is yours!

Exactly, almost everyone who jumped on Bryan conclusions never provided a study of theory, application and usage of the barrel tuners to maximize the accuracy or enhance the precision and accuracy of the given rifle.

It is time to be more specific, and if the tuner is positively enhancing the precision and accuracy of the rifle. What kind of rifles, barrel length, barrel construction and profile, caliber bullet weight, fast/slow burning powder, etc.

 

[Ccrider]

Way too much time typing and too little time reading and comprehending. Get an Ezell tuner and test it as directed on numerous threads. If there is something you don’t understand about it, give Mike a call. He will graciously take the time to walk you through the process and help you troubleshoot or just plain understand.

Otherwise, go troll somewhere else. We have really knowledgeable people on this site that donate their valuable time and knowledge to help us out. They do not owe us anything. Yet, they share freely. Still, some of you think that is not enough. I would bar you from the site.