Advice for Bryan Litz on barrel tuners.

[VA_XTC_Shooter]

Correct me if I am wrong, but tuners, as shown multiple times on this forum, can refine a load's group size. I don't think that is really the debate. The debate is usefulness for a particular use. It is my understaning that tuners are popular in the unlimited sighter competition types (BR and Fclass) because you can fine "tune" before going for record.

I don't see that ability in Highpower, PRS, etc. that has 2 or no sighters.

Is that a fair assessment?

 

[memilanuk]

It is my understaning that tuners are popular in the unlimited sighter competition types (BR and Fclass) because you can fine "tune" before going for record.

I don't see that ability in Highpower, PRS, etc. that has 2 or no sighters.

Is that a fair assessment?

Not really.

Given your user name, I'd suggest you go look at section 22 of the NRA High Power Rifle rule book.

 

[VA_XTC_Shooter]

Not really.

Given your user name, I'd suggest you go look at section 22 of the NRA High Power Rifle rule book.

What exactly am I looking for?

 

[memilanuk]

The F-class section. In the High Power Rifle rule book.

It's not separate from NRA High Power; it's been a part of NRA High Power Rifle from it's inception in the states. Outside of large regional or national events, it's shot concurrently with Conventional Prone matches, with identical course of fire.

 

[VA_XTC_Shooter]

The F-class section. In the High Power Rifle rule book.

It's not separate from NRA High Power; it's been a part of NRA High Power Rifle from it's inception in the states. Outside of large regional or national events, it's shot concurrently with Conventional Prone matches, with identical course of fire.

OK, so what's your point? It's still a different course of fire than XTC with more sighters.

 

[memilanuk]

OK, so what's your point? It's still a different course of fire than XTC with more sighters.

You didn't say 'XTC', you said 'High Power'.

'High Power' encompasses more than just XTC.

 

[VA_XTC_Shooter]

You didn't say 'XTC', you said 'High Power'.

'High Power' encompasses more than just XTC.

No one that I know of refers to Fclass as Highpower, anyone saying highpower is referring to across the course. I specifically mentioned Fclass along with BR because of the different course of fire.

Now that we have the semantics out of the way, do you have an answer to my actual question?

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

No one that I know of refers to Fclass as Highpower, anyone saying highpower is referring to across the course. I specifically mentioned Fclass along with BR because of the different course of fire.

Now that we have the semantics out of the way, do you have an answer to my actual question?

Not having, or not seeing your sighters certainly does make it harder, but it's no different than if you didn't have a tuner. Moving a tuner is like changing the load...I wouldn't do it unless you know why and what you should expect from it(either method).

Good notes will carry you a long way but ultimately, if you don't have sighters, you have to fall back on the last target and make an educated guess as to moving it or believing the condition will come to you and bring it into better tune. That's assuming it needed anything. Temp is the MAIN factor because of its affect on the chemical reaction, that is, smokeless powder turning from a solid into a gas. Air density plays a smaller role. That would explain why there are days that the same temp swing that calls for a change on one day, doesn't always.

There are a few people that believe they have a workable formula for temp and air density or density altitude but I can't say that I'm convinced due to all the factors at play, like different powder characteristics, for example, as well as just plain old consistent top finishes to back it up. No offense intended. I'd like to be proven wrong on that.

 

[BoydAllen]

Undoubtedly that is true for Average Joe but sadly it isnt how the male ego works. Putting carts before horses has been a male trait since carts and horses came about. Surely you cant just say to someone wanting to work a tuner, "come back when your competent"

On the same token though you could apply what you describe to any form of load development, if a shooter isnt capable of 0.5moa shooting he isnt ever going to be able to develop a 0.5"moa load.

This thread though is titled "Advice for Bryan Litz" so on that basis we should be able to rule out all of your concerns and focus on giving him (or any other competent shooter) best advice based on the criteria Ive already laid down.

I have made a hobby of trying to help shooters improve their results. Generally speaking it is what they "know" that is the biggest problem. Do you really think that Mr. Litz is looking for advice after publishing his study? I have not seen any indication that that is the case. As far as others are concerned, one can only help people to the extent that they are willing to change what they are doing. In many cases fellows want improved results but do not want to do what is needed to achieve them. No one can do anything about that. YouTube is a double edged sword. If you have enough background to sort good advice from bad it is an excellent resource. Many lack that, and are lead astray by videos that lead them in the wrong direction. Those who use are pleased with the results that they experience using tuners in competition already know how to tune a load without one, know how to shoot, have excellent rifles and equipment, and are fully aware of the importance of monitoring the wind as they shoot. Their tuners are more icing on the cake than a requirement to win. I have tested several tuners, and IMO they work, but none of them will compensate for poor reading of wind flags, and for many including myself, that is our major limiting factor. One cannot buy ones way out of that.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

I have made a hobby of trying to help shooters improve their results. Generally speaking it is what they "know" that is the biggest problem. Do you really think that Mr. Litz is looking for advice after publishing his study? I have not seen any indication that that is the case. As far as others are concerned, one can only help people to the extent that they are willing to change what they are doing. In many cases fellows want improved results but do not want to do what is needed to achieve them. No one can do anything about that. YouTube is a double edged sword. If you have enough background to sort good advice from bad it is an excellent resource. Many lack that, and are lead astray by videos that lead them in the wrong direction. Those who use are pleased with the results that they experience using tuners in competition already know how to tune a load without one, know how to shoot, have excellent rifles and equipment, and are fully aware of the importance of monitoring the wind as they shoot. Their tuners are more icing on the cake than a requirement to win. I have tested several tuners, and IMO they work, but none of them will compensate for poor reading of wind flags, and for many including myself, that is our major limiting factor. One cannot buy ones way out of that.

Good points Boyd. I'll add that, generally, the winners don't win because they outspend everyone. They win because they out work everyone.

 

[Bill Norris]

Good points Boyd. I'll add that, generally, the winners don't win because they outspend everyone. They win because they out work everyone.

Absolutely, there is no "free lunch" Work IN and results OUT.

 

[BoydAllen]

I know of several top class SRBR shooters who use tuners and who tune at matches with powder charges. I have seen others make noticeable improvements by making a small adjustment between matches. Be careful with assumptions. My definition of correct is works. It seems to me that getting a tuner to work requires a knack that some seem not to have. Over the years I have worked with people who follow directions well, and others who do not. There seem to be more of the latter.

 

[jelenko]

Do I have it right that a tuner can't make a small group from a load that shoots big groups? E.g., make groups less than 1/2 MOA from a load that shoots 2 MOA?

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Do I have it right that a tuner can't make a small group from a load that shoots big groups? E.g., make groups less than 1/2 MOA from a load that shoots 2 MOA?

I'd say it depends on why it's a 2moa load and bbl stiffness. But frankly, I find that scenario to be rare, even with a hunting rifle and never with a br rifle. They won't fix a gun problem and they won't fix a bad bullet, but they will give whatever potential a load has. Let me re-phrase that...whatever potential those load components have, in that rifle. Tuning is TIMING, by whatever means. But some combinations don't have the potential to shoot bugholes at any powder charge nor tuner setting. I doubt you'd get the potential from a 22 Hornet with Retumbo, for example. But it might surprise me, albeit lobbing it in there.

 

[Jeff Porter]

Correct me if I am wrong, but tuners, as shown multiple times on this forum, can refine a load's group size. I don't think that is really the debate. The debate is usefulness for a particular use. It is my understaning that tuners are popular in the unlimited sighter competition types (BR and Fclass) because you can fine "tune" before going for record.

I don't see that ability in Highpower, PRS, etc. that has 2 or no sighters.

Is that a fair assessment?

Fair assessment but maybe for the wrong reasons. - As Highpower also includes Mid range Prone and Long Range sling classes where often the first match of the day gets unlimited sighters, it can be speculated that a tuner may help with the set up for the day. As the subsequent matches only get two sighters, the usefulness of the tuner is minimized,

BUT... the value of the tuner is lost in the lack of precision from shooting from a sling and in the relatively huge scoring rings in sling targets compared to a BR match. You can tune your load down under 0.5 MOA and theoretically shoot all X's on the XTC targets with a 1 MOA X ring and a 2 MOA 10 ring. Actually holding and reading wind for 20 shots takes a lot more from a sling than a bench or a bipod. Conversely - If you have a 1 MOA load and a 1 MOA hold you can clean a prone target due to the size of the scoring rings.

In any form of competitive shooting the more precise a load can shoot will help the final score, but Highpower can negate that advantage very quickly if you cannot hold x ring elevation or read the wind to a couple of MPH past 600. And if a shooter is shooting corner shots.... It is you dude.. No tuner can fix that.

As an XTC shooter you may be familiar with Konrad's Highpower you tube videos. He ran a Monte Carlo simulation where he simulated HM Expert Marksman level shooters shooting ammo with different levels of precision ( poor good and excellent ). My takeaway from that was a mediocre shooter actually had a better probability of a higher score with the good quality ammo due to the natural dispersion throwing some bad shots into the middle versus not being able to hold the X with a bullet that goes where you point it.

 

[TrxR]

Fair assessment but maybe for the wrong reasons. - As Highpower also includes Mid range Prone and Long Range sling classes where often the first match of the day gets unlimited sighters, it can be speculated that a tuner may help with the set up for the day. As the subsequent matches only get two sighters, the usefulness of the tuner is minimized,

BUT... the value of the tuner is lost in the lack of precision from shooting from a sling and in the relatively huge scoring rings in sling targets compared to a BR match. You can tune your load down under 0.5 MOA and theoretically shoot all X's on the XTC targets with a 1 MOA X ring and a 2 MOA 10 ring. Actually holding and reading wind for 20 shots takes a lot more from a sling than a bench or a bipod. Conversely - If you have a 1 MOA load and a 1 MOA hold you can clean a prone target due to the size of the scoring rings.

In any form of competitive shooting the more precise a load can shoot will help the final score, but Highpower can negate that advantage very quickly if you cannot hold x ring elevation or read the wind to a couple of MPH past 600. And if a shooter is shooting corner shots.... It is you dude.. No tuner can fix that.

As an XTC shooter you may be familiar with Konrad's Highpower you tube videos. He ran a Monte Carlo simulation where he simulated HM Expert Marksman level shooters shooting ammo with different levels of precision ( poor good and excellent ). My takeaway from that was a mediocre shooter actually had a better probability of a higher score with the good quality ammo due to the natural dispersion throwing some bad shots into the middle versus not being able to hold the X with a bullet that goes where you point it.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought fclass shooting only allowed 2 sighters? Or is that only ftr?

 

[Dusty Stevens]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought fclass shooting only allowed 2 sighters? Or is that only ftr?

Not on the first relay

 

[Dusty Stevens]

A simple explanation on tuners the way i use them- lets say im shooting zeroes and the temp heats up 10deg. I wont be shooting zeroes at the next relay unless i change my load. Lets say i change the load but not enough because the target crew had a broke cable and it took 30mins to repair, now my load is off. I go to the line, shoot 2 sighters, move my tuner out one number and fire 2 more. If they are worse then i go in 2 numbers. One way or the other will get it back in tune. Now lets say im shooting zeroes, load that load up and go to a match next month. Doubtful that load will shoot zeroes even with 2-3 marks each way but i can get it better than without a tuner. Shooters can do the same thing with powder, neck tension, and seating depth, but you cant really do that in the heat of the moment when commence fire gets called.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

A simple explanation on tuners the way i use them- lets say im shooting zeroes and the temp heats up 10deg. I wont be shooting zeroes at the next relay unless i change my load. Lets say i change the load but not enough because the target crew had a broke cable and it took 30mins to repair, now my load is off. I go to the line, shoot 2 sighters, move my tuner out one number and fire 2 more. If they are worse then i go in 2 numbers. One way or the other will get it back in tune. Now lets say im shooting zeroes, load that load up and go to a match next month. Doubtful that load will shoot zeroes even with 2-3 marks each way but i can get it better than without a tuner. Shooters can do the same thing with powder, neck tension, and seating depth, but you cant really do that in the heat of the moment when commence fire gets called.

I agree with most of that and there's more than one way to do things. The physics are more simple and predictable than your description though. Frequency determines how far you move a tuner for a full nodal cycle, ALWAYS. ..This is basically a constant because the bbl doesn't change its natural frequency enough, with temp changes..or anything else, to change that. Also, a hotter load may well change amplitude a little but not frequency.
Bottom line, I've shot the same load over 45°+ temp swings and only used the tuner, several times but that wide of a swing isn't real common to test here. This is an area where I again allude to this being with MY tuner. Dampening appears to be of importance in this regard and not all tuners dampen equally. Never seen a good load in any condition that it wouldn't make good in another condition..yet.

edit...one caveat to that is if the load simply gets so hot that shots pop out due to pressure. What I'm referring to, I don't think many would refer to as a real tune issue but rather, just too dang hot with that combination, where the load is unstable. Brass wrecking hot! Yes, there are combinations that shoot up there, too.

 

[Tim Singleton]

I thought that was the #1 reason to use a tuner.

Later
Dave

Good shooting last week!