Advice for Bryan Litz on barrel tuners.

[Curious]

Further to a recent topic of mine about the disappointing testing of barrel tuners by Bryan Litz.

It was clear that for whatever reason Bryan didnt test these tuners in an open minded and structured way, as such his results were questionable. IMHO it has tainted some peoples opinions of tuners based on Bryan's reputation rather than the product itself or the results many tuner users see week in week out.

Many people who commented said why didnt he get people who are experts or well versed with tuners to help in his testing and show him how they do it? - a very valid point!

So how about we have a thread here that he and the rest of the world can read and learn from?

Two scenarios

1. A heavy barrel varminter or competition rifle

2. A hunting rifle.

I think it would be a fascinating discussion to see how different people tune their guns using a tuner? I cant seem to find many instructions online even from those who make and sell them, that certainly doesnt help matters.

What say you all?

 

[dgeesaman]

I think you have it backwards. Brian did use a structured method of testing, which unfortunately did not show the improvements that many shooters enjoy using tuners. The matter is simple to me: a tuner shaves maybe 1/8 moa off of a well tuned, well tested setup. In the right environment, that’s a huge benefit. His testing was looking for larger gains using somewhat less precise equipment. His process wanted to see if a tuner produced long lasting effects on tune, but tuner users generally make adjustments as they go to stay in tune.

“Competition rifle” is not a category, it’s a host of categories. Brian used the kind of competition rifles where tuners are not well suited.

The tuner crowd leans heavily toward benchrest shooting. Brian’s testing was not benchrest.

It’s clear that not many have read his latest book about this study, and if anyone is turned away it’s shooters who don’t already use tuners and would struggle to benefit from them because their competition format doesn’t allow checking and adjusting tune.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Further to a recent topic of mine about the disappointing testing of barrel tuners by Bryan Litz.

It was clear that for whatever reason Bryan didnt test these tuners in an open minded and structured way, as such his results were questionable. IMHO it has tainted some peoples opinions of tuners based on Bryan's reputation rather than the product itself or the results many tuner users see week in week out.

Many people who commented said why didnt he get people who are experts or well versed with tuners to help in his testing and show him how they do it? - a very valid point!

So how about we have a thread here that he and the rest of the world can read and learn from?

Two scenarios

1. A heavy barrel varminter or competition rifle

2. A hunting rifle.

I think it would be a fascinating discussion to see how different people tune their guns using a tuner? I cant seem to find many instructions online even from those who make and sell them, that certainly doesnt help matters.

What say you all?

One reason is it's a really long post describing the process, much less the why's and what fors...which leads to more questions and really long threads. I do this by phone.

Another reason is that tuner instructions are not universal between designs. Big differences in bbl stiffness can be a factor as well, in how I'd go about it and which which one.

With those two considerations alone, how long before a thread like that becomes a problem rather than beneficial?

I will say that the most common mistake is moving too far at a time and without a well worked out methodology. My phone instruction averages about 20 minutes but has often gone an hour plus.

 

[Uthink Uknow]

I will take that giant step forward and say that tuners work in heavy barrel varmint competition rifles at short range. That is the limit of my experience. I said the same in the original thread started by that guy that relates the experiences of another shooter. I have proven to myself through years of using a Beggs Tuner or Beggs style tuner on my Varmint For Score rifles in short range bench rest competition at the National level. This is not a short test with limited shooting. This is a test with thousands (plural) shots fired through three rifles and probably ten barrels. I don’t count how many barrels I’ve shot out. Every move I make on the tuner and every series of shots I take are documented in the copious notes I keep. I keep a separate notebook for every rifle and every barrel. I keep track of tuner position, density altitude reading at the time, and score on that target. If you think you can thread a tuner on and expect instant favorable results, you have to think again. Also, I have a tuner screwed on each barrel and not one tuner goes from barrel to barrel. Change barrels, change notes. So I’ll say that my tuner on my barrel in my narrow discipline (short range BR) works for me. So don’t knock tuners in all disciplines based on the results of one competitor In one discipline. At the same time, don’t you sing their praises on the results I’ve had.

 

[Bugs]

OK, here are my observations. . . . I shoot long range BR, always some kind of a 6mm variant, HV contour barrels, usually 30" long unless they've been set back. I use a tuner on every one of my barrels and have done so for many years. I've never experienced a barrel that I could not make shoot better by using the tuner, some significantly better and some only marginally so. So do your testing and draw your own conclusions.

 

[xswanted]

Arnold says…….

 

[Brians356]

I've never experienced a barrel that I could not make shoot better by using the tuner, some significantly better and some only marginally so. So do your testing and draw your own conclusions.

The question, however, is did a tuner make a barrel shoot better than it might have shot if you'd omitted the tuner and instead applied the same effort just to refining a load? That's the fly in the ointment of proving that a tuner is a more efficient approach, and can reach a higher precision than load refinement alone. It's likely impossible to prove either that time was saved or higher precision achieved.

PS I'm not saying you are claiming to have proven anything. But others may so claim.
-

 

[Uthink Uknow]

What I am saying is, “It is easier to stay in tune all day with these race horses by twisting a tuner than it is by with adjusting a load as conditions change ALL DAY.”
You adjust a load after the first relay because conditions have changed but is that a guarantee that the new load will work on the next relay? With a tuner, you nudge up or down or both and you’re back in high cotton. Again, in short range BR.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

What I am saying is, “It is easier to stay in tune all day with these race horses by twisting a tuner than it is by with adjusting a load as conditions change ALL DAY.”
You adjust a load after the first relay because conditions have changed but is that a guarantee that the new load will work on the next relay? With a tuner, you nudge up or down or both and you’re back in high cotton. Again, in short range BR.

This...exactly this.
I don't claim tuners can improve upon an otherwise perfect tune but tune changes, You may not see it with a half minute rifle but you will with a sub .20 gun and load. You keep it small and in tune by one means or the other, both can work but a tuner is literally at your fingertips.
Nor do I advocate tuning by only using a tuner and no load work up prior, but on many occasions, I have been able to simply throw a known good load at a specific new chambering and be hard pressed to beat it by any means, with just a nudge of the tuner.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

This is the way i use them. If the tune changes after im loaded for the next relay i can nudge one more relay, kinda like shifting my tune window up or down to work with that load thats real close to start with

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

This is the way i use them. If the tune changes after im loaded for the next relay i can nudge one more relay, kinda like shifting my tune window up or down to work with that load thats real close to start with

Yessir! You are literally shifting phase time, which means you can move the top of the wave form left or right to coincide with bullet exit time. You deal with electricity. I'm sure you can relate. We're not so much changing frequency as we are phase time. Regardless, either tuning method is about just that, timing bullet exit with optimal muzzle position.

 

[Curious]

I didnt think was I was asking was that complicated, I still dont yet there are many words and still few answers.

If I look out there on Youtube there are all sorts of guys using tuners and almost as many making them yet if you are new to tuners there isnt much well documented info as to how to go about using them for different applications. Youtube is mainly full of the two shots/adjust/two shots brigade, I can see why Bryan didnt like that as I believe its a flawed method that wont produce consistent repeatable results.

Tuners can be used for rimfire and CF, factory ammo and reloaded ammo, high level short range BR and all other competition disciplines from FClass to PRS yet still very little info from anyone on how to go about using one. I appreciate a personal telephone conversation could be useful but I would expect some detailed info online for everyone to read would help more people more often - how about it all your tuner makers?

I fully understand the short range BR crowd who are looking to keep a gun in tune over a range of atmospheric conditions encountered in a day/match and without doubt a tuner certainly does that but I think Bryan isnt disputing that, I think (although I might be wrong) he was looking at the effectiveness of a tuner over a much wider spectrum of applications for Joe Average.

Ive used a tuner a lot but mainly in a certain way so my experience is limited, hence asking for the experiences of others. If I have tuners fitted and I work both powder and seating depth until I have a good repeatable load, the tuner then gives me an extra dimension of fine tuning if required. Sometimes that helps, sometimes it doesnt improve what was clearly a high state of tune, in that case nothing lost.

How about your Average Joe with his factory ammo or much lower level of load development ability?

Ive tried tuners on factory ammo, sometimes with great results and other time with disastrous ones that might raise someones eyebrow to the question do they really work or are they consistent/repeatable?

In fact that question in itself, "do they really work?" very much depends on what your trying to get from them I expect.

I thought it might have been an interesting topic to discuss over a broader spectrum than just short range BR.

 

[Bill Norris]

From reading posts in this thread and the other one concerning Brian's test and considering the knowledge expressed and explained by educated BR shooters one has to assume a tuner does work to some degree. But, if proof is a deciding factor for any shooter then I would suggest buying a tuner of your choice and test it yourself. I do not compete in any form and do not claim to be educated enough to argue the point however, I do shoot probably more than the average hand loader. Up until a few months back I was not remotely interested in any type of tuner. I do my load development for a given rifle (all custom builds by ODCR) and can fairly quickly and easily get those rifles to shoot 1/4 MOA and sometimes better. But, I became interested in Erik Cortina's tuner/brake and decided to try one. By following his brief instructions in a video I was impressed with the results I saw and still see with the four of my rifles that wear the tuner/brake. Did the tuner/brake make my rifle, my load, or even me better ? I doubt it. However, what I did see was a more consistent set of groups by learning how to adjust the tuner per temp and conditions changes that I have no control over. Once you see that for yourself nobody can tell you the tuner does not work nor have no bearing on how your rifle and load works. My advice for Brian is go test again with guys that know what they are doing and with rifles and loads that are capable of changes of the tuner's efforts.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

I didnt think was I was asking was that complicated, I still dont yet there are many words and still few answers.

If I look out there on Youtube there are all sorts of guys using tuners and almost as many making them yet if you are new to tuners there isnt much well documented info as to how to go about using them for different applications. Youtube is mainly full of the two shots/adjust/two shots brigade, I can see why Bryan didnt like that as I believe its a flawed method that wont produce consistent repeatable results.

Tuners can be used for rimfire and CF, factory ammo and reloaded ammo, high level short range BR and all other competition disciplines from FClass to PRS yet still very little info from anyone on how to go about using one. I appreciate a personal telephone conversation could be useful but I would expect some detailed info online for everyone to read would help more people more often - how about it all your tuner makers?

I fully understand the short range BR crowd who are looking to keep a gun in tune over a range of atmospheric conditions encountered in a day/match and without doubt a tuner certainly does that but I think Bryan isnt disputing that, I think (although I might be wrong) he was looking at the effectiveness of a tuner over a much wider spectrum of applications for Joe Average.

Ive used a tuner a lot but mainly in a certain way so my experience is limited, hence asking for the experiences of others. If I have tuners fitted and I work both powder and seating depth until I have a good repeatable load, the tuner then gives me an extra dimension of fine tuning if required. Sometimes that helps, sometimes it doesnt improve what was clearly a high state of tune, in that case nothing lost.

How about your Average Joe with his factory ammo or much lower level of load development ability?

Ive tried tuners on factory ammo, sometimes with great results and other time with disastrous ones that might raise someones eyebrow to the question do they really work or are they consistent/repeatable?

In fact that question in itself, "do they really work?" very much depends on what your trying to get from them I expect.

I thought it might have been an interesting topic to discuss over a broader spectrum than just short range BR.

I'll address any question you have about MY tuner to the best of my ability but it will only be in regard to MY tuner and at the moment, be related to BR rifles or similar. The same info does not necessarily correlate to a pencil bbl hunting rifle.

 

[Curious]

I'll address any question you have about MY tuner to the best of my ability but it will only be in regard to MY tuner and at the moment, be related to BR rifles or similar. The same info does not necessarily correlate to a pencil bbl hunting rifle.

OK thats fair enough.

So please tell me how to tune a 6PPC BR gun using one of your tuners from start to finish.

I dont say that flippantly, Im genuinely interested to know.

Something that occurs to me with regard to SRBR though is you guys seem to develop the load in a conventional fashion and then use the tuner to make micro adjustments to maintain the tune. To me thats not being used as a tuner as such, thats more a micro adjuster that allows small adjustments to an already good tune, please correct me if Im wrong on that. I appreciate we could get lost here in semantics but Im sure you catch my drift?

For something to be called a tuner I would expect it to make a considerable difference to the method of load development itself, say in the way it can effect factory ammo both CF and rimfire?

ps, I have one of your tuners by the way in my workshop, theres a lot of work gone into them compared to others.

 

[Curious]

But, if proof is a deciding factor for any shooter then I would suggest buying a tuner of your choice and test it yourself.

I think this is where the problem lies with peoples opinions though.

I watch people using tuners on Youtube and its clear they dont really know what they are doing with them, I also feel that is where Bryan Litz is right now.

Just leaving people to figure it out for themselves will never help many and negative opinions can be easily formed.

 

[Curious]

Here is an example of some of the difficulties Ive faced in the past while working with tuners, I feel Ive worked out the reasons for the differing results myself but many wouldnt have and so they feel tuners are either inconsistent or dont work to a level that can be useful to them, maybe like Bryan got to.

I fitted a tuner to a rifle that was known to be very accurate with numerous reloads. I bought three different types of good quality factory ammo, shooting from a concrete bench in a tunnel full SRBR rest and rear bag. The gun wasnt a BR gun but will agg in a tunnel around 0.275"

One box of ammo tuned beautifully from maybe 0.7" down to 0.3" and then repeated a number of times. Move the tuner significantly and then back to its favoured spot and again the accuracy was repeated. A perfect example of how a tuner can help anyone including Joe Average.

One box just wouldnt tune, group sizes moved up and down a bit put POI also shifted considerably, even after another box so 50 rounds in total they gun showed no improvement and if I didnt know better I would say tuners didnt work, especially had that been my first rodeo.

One box tuned from maybe 0.8" down to again around 0.3-035" but the best setting wouldnt repeat and either side of it was bad also, again not a good endorsement of a tuner.

In all of these tests the tuner was being moved in small increments on a fine thread, I wasnt just wanging it all over the place randomly, it was a structured test. As Ive said I know how to bring my gun in and out of tune easily but using those three factory loads at least two would go down as inconclusive or negative tests.

Anyone care to speculate on why I got such results?

ps Im a proven BR shooter myself with plenty of wins in Europe where I live, I say this just to eliminate any suggestions of equipment or user error. Im just a guy very interested in tuners for all applications not just SRBR.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Here is an example of some of the difficulties Ive faced in the past while working with tuners, I feel Ive worked out the reasons for the differing results myself but many wouldnt have and so they feel tuners are either inconsistent or dont work to a level that can be useful to them, maybe like Bryan got to.

I fitted a tuner to a rifle that was known to be very accurate with numerous reloads. I bought three different types of good quality factory ammo, shooting from a concrete bench in a tunnel full SRBR rest and rear bag. The gun wasnt a BR gun but will agg in a tunnel around 0.275"

One box of ammo tuned beautifully from maybe 0.7" down to 0.3" and then repeated a number of times. Move the tuner significantly and then back to its favoured spot and again the accuracy was repeated. A perfect example of how a tuner can help anyone including Joe Average.

One box just wouldnt tune, group sizes moved up and down a bit put POI also shifted considerably, even after another box so 50 rounds in total they gun showed no improvement and if I didnt know better I would say tuners didnt work, especially had that been my first rodeo.

One box tuned from maybe 0.8" down to again around 0.3-035" but the best setting wouldnt repeat and either side of it was bad also, again not a good endorsement of a tuner.

In all of these tests the tuner was being moved in small increments on a fine thread, I wasnt just wanging it all over the place randomly, it was a structured test. As Ive said I know how to bring my gun in and out of tune easily but using those three factory loads at least two would go down as inconclusive or negative tests.

Anyone care to speculate on why I got such results?

ps Im a proven BR shooter myself with plenty of wins in Europe where I live, I say this just to eliminate any suggestions of equipment or user error. Im just a guy very interested in tuners for all applications not just SRBR.

I'm not sure what to tell you if you believe a tuner should fix issues with factory ammo. In regard to you other post, stating you have one of my tuners...If you got it from me, you got in depth instruction with a phone call, as that's the only way I do tuner orders...and to avoid getting into generalized use instructions that raise feathers with someone who owns a different tuner, that doesn't work exactly the same in regard to adjustment values. If you wanna call me Monday, I'll walk you through it just like I do with every customer. But you're just asking me to do what I already said no to, here. There has been too much confusion, for too long about how to go about it. Posting what some might view as universal tuner instructions online just confuses things worse. I already addressed that. A phone call will get you all the instruction I can offer.

Now, since you said you have tuners and have approached adjusting them methodically, why don't you explain your process that worked for you and with what tuner. That should be an endorsement for their product.

I do think tuners can tune a rifle to shoot factory ammo to the ammo's potential but it won't make a sow's ear into a silk purse, and every lot can be different. Yes, I've tested it. Out of the initial 20 types and lots, two were exceptional AFTER tuning. Some were decent and others were horrible, no matter how much tuning was done, but it did change group shape and size. A tuner won't fix junk ammo nor guns. As a BR shooter, I can't imagine why I just had to explain that, though. GIGO, comes to mind. Garbage in, garbage out. But there were some lots that shot well enough that I'd take to a match and I think I can stay off the bottom of the page with. That alone is a huge statement for factory ammo in a real live br match!

FWIW, my tuners all DO come with a generalized instruction sheet. If you want the nitty gritty, I do it by phone. Do you have a specific question that might help with your use of my tuner or not? I'm happy to help if I can.

Bottom line...I'm freely offering everything you ask for but not to start a public pissing match over it.

 

[jelenko]

“Competition rifle” is not a category, it’s a host of categories. Brian used the kind of competition rifles where tuners are not well suited.

The tuner crowd leans heavily toward benchrest shooting. Brian’s testing was not benchrest.

This^

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

I'll post this, as I have before. It represents very well how I establish a setting as well as why..with my tuner. This is a short range cf rifle and the test was not shot by me. It's quite typical except most rifles show a little more muzzle deflection and clarity. This is generally relative to bbl stiffness. He did the test very much like I asked and it tells me exactly what I look for from it.
See that sine wave and group SHAPES? That's what I look for, almost perfectly.