Accurate Shooting or Accurate Cost?

[Richard Coody]

Richard,
It's all I got, so that's what I work with.
I'm feeling you bench rest guys are just inviting some of us hunters to come shoot with ya.
First I got to take a sack of quarters and go get my ass handed to me by alinwa.
Brett

hey i hunt too! i have several hunting rifles. my go to hunting rifle is a rem. 700 .308. not benchrest accurate but i have never missed a deer or had one run off wounded. Hunting is a completely different skillset. no benches and rest out there. do i take these rifles to the range. Absolutely the weeks before hunting season i check sightin which never changes and several trips i just shoot 1 cold bore shot to make sure the one that counts goes in the bull.

nobody is carrying a 17# bench gun to the woods. shooting benchrest is another completely different skillset. i shoot 6mm because of the lower recoil. i shoot free recoil with a 2oz trigger. gun is set on the rest dialed in and the only thing that i touch it with is my trigger finger. kind of a simplified explanation with lots of variations.

anyway you wouldn't use that tecnique with an 06 and i don't with my 7.5 lb .308.

my comments about factory guns was not directed at your style of.shooter. its the new shooter that thinks he needs to apply all these advanced reloading tecniques to get his factory gun to shoot actually the word is precise. they are wasting their money. a good set of standard dies and quality components can bring out the best in a factory rifle.

 

[Bc'z]

Richard,
I believe JD said it best in a tread a month or so ago. Something bout wishing his wife was there to hit him in the back of the head before posting.
Some times I should just keep my mouth shut and see where things go.
I can only strive to be as good a shot as you gentleman. But hey a guy has got to have goals. And I've always enjoyed friendly challenges.
As everybody knows, any shooting sports can, and will be expensive, depending on how deep they want to go into it.
some folks have more resources than others, and I guess I was trying to get that point across and went about it the wrong way.
My apologies,
Brett

 

[Richard Coody]

great shooting! but this is benchrest at the same range.

 

[Richard Coody]

and here is the guy who beat him. hard to believe isn't it. for many years that would be a great 100yd target. now they are doing it regularly at 600

 

[mike a]

and here is the guy who beat him. hard to believe isn't it. for many years that would be a great 100yd target. now they are doing it regularly at 600

Wow, here's my best. At 100 of course.

 

[snert]

Is this one of those times if I said "mine is bigger than yours" it would seem funny?

 

[ben lurkin]

Mines not great shooting at all . It is fair for a stock rifle it is also 10 rounds not five with a novice driver my point was low budget hunting rifles can still have decent scores.
Wagner s rifle is not stock Apples to Ferrari's
Post your best target benchrest or hunting. Not someone else's that would mean more to me.
Much Respect
Jim

Like most things, the last 10% of performance is 90% of the cost. Your 600 yard group is impressive given what you are using.

 

[Richard Coody]

Mines not great shooting at all . It is fair for a stock rifle it is also 10 rounds not five with a novice driver my point was low budget hunting rifles can still have decent scores.
Wagner s rifle is not stock Apples to Ferrari's
Post your best target benchrest or hunting. Not someone else's that would mean more to me.
Much Respect
Jim

listen you are taking my comments totally the wrong way. that is great shooting for the typical shooter with an average rifle. you can't compare benchrest precision to it. i really don't think you want to. now you put you an economical savage together right and you will be supprised what you can do but don't expect to get where those guys are. it takes years and some real coin to get there. unfortunately i don't save targets and don't have a place to shoot long range. i do have one target that is still on my phone where i was starting load development with my savage and i believe i have a target where i was doing final load development for my .308 hunting rifle.

finished up here

.308 hunting rifle 7.5# with a #3 contour. now this was after using the berger seating depth test and finding the jump 0.130 off. fine tuning by .010 each way. showed me it works and the seating depth node was 0.030 wide.

 

[TC260]

I guess I’m not seeing the issue here. There are accuracy related posts all over the place. Some are budget related. Some not.

It is pretty easy for me to wade through what interests me and what doesn’t.

Well said my friend. There's numerous world record holders that routinely post and freely share their information on the site. Hard for me to complain about that.

In my experience in other sports, if a person wants to learn more, the answer is to go to competitions and talk to people. More information is discussed over a round of beers than a years worth of reading.

 

[270WinDude]

well so much is defined by what you are trying to do. i am far down the rabbit hole. i have learned an incredible amount on this forum. it frustrates me to no end reading the post from the uninformed on this forum recently. they seem to think wrongly that what they are doing is the correct way and only way to do whatever they are espousing about. makes it hard for the new shooters to separate the wheat from the chaff

others on this forum are talking about turning brass, weighing powder to 0.02 grains, custom dies and annealing when they are shooting a factory remington 700. no doubt they wonder why they can't shoot 0.25 in groups.

I know why I can't always shoot .25 groups with centerfire actually... In large part I need better equipment as you mention. I will agree I think some people focus on things that should be lower in priority though. That is kind of related to the OPs point in my mind. As a newcomer I have/had a hard time learning what activities/costs produce the best gains. The priorities to accuracy. I'll say that for the probably 3-5 months I've been into shooting, of which I have devoted almost all day everyday to learning, I have been able to sort through a TON of information and learn as much or more then many people I know who've spent a lot more time. This is possible because of the info on this forum (lots of good threads to dig up), books (shout out Brian Litz), which is why all these people PM'ing each other upsets me a bit. I don't know if I should blame those who argue their point and add clutter or those who keep good info/experience to PMs over posts, probably the former. My solution to some of this, which I might one day embark on, would be an article or running post. I see 3 tiers of bolt action accuracy nuts: BR, F-class (and f-recreation), and hunting. There are certainly cheapest/easiest paths to each but then there are sub categories of each. From what I can tell on this forum and another, most newcomers would want the cheapest up front gun to learn with but scalable for future expenditures/modifications, so f-class recreation (if a thing). One thread now seems like that regarding a savage fv. I wanted to learn about cheapest path to BR and still am kinda at a loss there but every time I post questions I get answers. I'm rambling, I need more specifics OP...

 

[270WinDude]

Many shooters here do not have unlimited funds and would like to get the most precision for their money. Sometimes saving a little money can be greatly facilitated by a suggestion or comment from another forum member.

No one should need help when cost is NOT a consideration .

I have a Weaver T36 now thanks the classifieds here and the advice of members on the forum. My step dad paid almost 200 more for his scope at cabelas, pretty sure mine is better at it's role from my 100-600yds then his is. Example of the OPs concern working in my benefit.

 

[grovey]

point made!

yes they do believe it.

factory remington 700 consistent in the 3's

how about posting a target with 5 five shot groups that average in the 3's

my point is unless you have a rifle/shooter capable of seeing a 0.10 improvement in group size much of the finer (more expensive) reloading tecniques are really a waste of money. if you are happy with a consistent half inch gun, which is really pretty good for the average shooter, you can get there with average reloading equipment.

if you want to go down the rabbit hole then the first thing you need to do is get a rifle that can benefit from it. you will never know if your reloading evolution is improving if you can't see it on the target.

What a chitty point of view....

 

[Richard Coody]

What a chitty point of view....

please explain that comment

 

[dedogs]

A good friend of mine once told me you can wring 90% accuracy out of just about any rifle pretty easily/in-expensively. But that last 10% is really going to cost you! He was right! dedogs

 

[grovey]

please explain that comment

Sure thing....

IMO your bashing anyone who "only" shoots a factory rifle.( A 700 in particular) The way I read yours posts These bottom feeders should only be using "entry level" reloading equip and methods , and god forbid they ask about more advanced ways to get the most out of their rifle. As if they're not worthy of being a part of a conversation. And then the challenging someone to shoot 5 5 shot groups to match your cherry picked target shot with a 12lb ? gun with an aftermarket bbl and what else? Seems childish...

I'm sure there are a boat load of factory Rem 700's that shoot in the .3's consistently after load development. Probably be alot more if they had 2 ounce triggers, and were in a flat stock that tracks and is captured in a 3" front vise/rest and topped with a 55x comp scope. Yes there are way better mouse traps made nowadays , but some of us can't afford to drop 5 to 10 grand on a rifle.

I'd like to think all shooters are welcome here regardless of gear or skill set, and I'd like to think someone might help me out with some solid advice when I have a question. The way I see it no one knew it all when they got bit by the accuracy bug, and most were shooting a factory rifle when they did..... Not many were born with a silver bat action in their mouth.

 

[Richard Coody]

Sure thing....

IMO your bashing anyone who "only" shoots a factory rifle.( A 700 in particular) The way I read yours posts These bottom feeders should only be using "entry level" reloading equip and methods , and god forbid they ask about more advanced ways to get the most out of their rifle. As if they're not worthy of being a part of a conversation. And then the challenging someone to shoot 5 5 shot groups to match your cherry picked target shot with a 12lb ? gun with an aftermarket bbl and what else? Seems childish...

I'm sure there are a boat load of factory Rem 700's that shoot in the .3's consistently after load development. Probably be alot more if they had 2 ounce triggers, and were in a flat stock that tracks and is captured in a 3" front vise/rest and topped with a 55x comp scope. Yes there are way better mouse traps made nowadays , but some of us can't afford to buy a 5 to 10 grand rifle.

I'd like to think all shooters are welcome here regardless of gear or skill set, and I'd like to think someone might help me out with some solid advice when I have a question. The way I see it no one knew it all when they got bit by the accuracy bug, and most were shooting a factory rifle when they did..... Not many were born with a silver bat action in their mouth.

you got me wrong there. i have always owned rem. 700's. my go to hunting rifle is a rem. 700 built in 1973. the year i graduated from high school.

my point was you don't need $1000 powder scales or necked turned brass or custom dies or high dollar annealers or the myriad of other advanced reloading tools to wring the accuracy from these guns.

now i have built several savages in the $1200 range that shoot very well. i have been down the rabbit hole with them. $1000's of reloading tools. if i read about it i have tried it. all to get another 0.10 smaller group. i can tell you it works. is it worth it? only you can decide.

 

[Bc'z]

Sure thing....

IMO your bashing anyone who "only" shoots a factory rifle.( A 700 in particular) The way I read yours posts These bottom feeders should only be using "entry level" reloading equip and methods , and god forbid they ask about more advanced ways to get the most out of their rifle. As if they're not worthy of being a part of a conversation. And then the challenging someone to shoot 5 5 shot groups to match your cherry picked target shot with a 12lb ? gun with an aftermarket bbl and what else? Seems childish...

I'm sure there are a boat load of factory Rem 700's that shoot in the .3's consistently after load development. Probably be alot more if they had 2 ounce triggers, and were in a flat stock that tracks and is captured in a 3" front vise/rest and topped with a 55x comp scope. Yes there are way better mouse traps made nowadays , but some of us can't afford to drop 5 to 10 grand on a rifle.

I'd like to think all shooters are welcome here regardless of gear or skill set, and I'd like to think someone might help me out with some solid advice when I have a question. The way I see it no one knew it all when they got bit by the accuracy bug, and most were shooting a factory rifle when they did..... Not many were born with a silver bat action in their mouth.

Actually what Ben & Richard were talkin about is folks asking for advice on how to roll better ammo and be better shots, only to ignore solid sound advice.
I say this cuz we've already had a gentlemen's discussion on the subject.
Trust me I'm guilty as I still neck size even after Dusty called me out for not taking sound advice from many accomplished shooters here.
Imo, a neck shoulder die is glorified neck sizing.
Brett

 

[grovey]

Actually what Ben & Richard were talkin about is folks asking for advice on how to roll better ammo and be better shots, only to ignore solid sound advice.
I say this cuz we've already had a gentlemen's discussion on the subject.
Trust me I'm guilty as I still neck size even after Dusty called me out for not taking sound advice from many accomplished shooters here.
Imo, a neck shoulder die is glorified neck sizing.
Brett

Everyone's entitled to their own opinion. It just seemed you were getting your chops busted for joining the conversation.

 

[Bc'z]

Everyone's entitled to their own opinion. It just seemed you were getting your chops busted for joining the conversation.

Brother I appreciate that.
I'm thick skinned and hard headed. I can take it. Good conversation comes from a good debate, not to mention what one can learn from it if they keep an open mind.
As for my groups @ last range session.
Basically standing n the barn with doors closed, and I couldn't hit the side of it to save my life. Groups ran between .5-.7..
Same load pictured,loaded last August.
Could be there's something to cold welding, or like the competitors fresh loaded ammo for a match could be better. Or erosion from the 100+ rounds fired w/Rl26.
God only knows

 

[grovey]

As far as what the OP posted. Accuracy vs cost.... I tried like hell to get a certain match bullet to shoot this spring mainly because of the lower cost, but it also had a great advertised BC. I went thru 5 boxes trying to tame them and finally threw in the towel. I switched to a better made ,but much worst BC ,and yes more expensive bullet and bingo....

The gun now shoots lights out and I'm using way less to shoot a match. So.... even though the better bullets cost more... I'm using less of them . It boils down to only spending a additional buck or two to shoot a match, and that's definitely contributed to me winning a few. Cheap got me nowhere.