Shooting tight groups with low mag scopes

[ELR LVR]

Was talking about scopes on another forum ( wanting. A floater scope strictly for load development )
and had a few people say it's not hard to shoot good groups ( this is relative but one guy was talking 1/2 Moa with a 4x so I'll just say good is 3/4" to 1" @100yd for conversation) with low power optics. Apparently the main deal is using a target that "matches" your reticle/ mag... Idk about all that because in my experience shooting groups with a 1-6 LPVO or a 3-9 thick reticle hunting scope and shooting groups with a 16x and a nice reticle.... Usually one is a heck of a lot easier and not consistent lol .I feel there's a point where low mag and thick hunting styles reticles , well the amount of precision you can do just falls off.

Most of mine are 4-16 and I'm using cranked up to 12 or so when I'm shooting for load development or what have you.

I know there is an argument of too much magnification being a problem ( especially for people like me with target anxiety, ) but...

Anyhow wanted to see if anyone had any input on this . Like how does one shoot smaller groups with lower mag ? What is the process of matching targets ? Maybe there some big secret or old school knowledge I have yet to discover lol !


View attachment 1650437

It helps A LOT............if you get good with open sights first
I had a 2-7x on a .222 and shot some of the best groups with that scope on it
I could not figure out how this was possible, basically near what I done with a 20x on it.
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But Think of it this way
on 7x, that's like reducing the distance 7x
so at 100 yds that is the equivalent of open sights at 15 yards
When you can shoot 1 inch groups open sights with a pistol at 30 yds....
you will shoot very fine groups at 100 with a rifle and low power scopes.
Plus with a rifle, you are usually proned out, bagged etc and even more stable than with a pistol.
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You must be able to define a fine aiming point with your naked eye, and hold it during follow through

 

[LCazador]

I utilize a floater scope that I have for testing ammo. With some rifles however I'm not going to swap scopes.
With a lower power scope I recommend going with a diamond target so you can orient and square the crosshairs to eliminate canting error. It's easy to cant the reticle with a lower power scope and not perceive it. While I use a one inch diamond for my higher power scopes, I use a 3 or 4 inch diamond for my lower power scopes.

 

[Texas Solo]

I do load development and shoot at x60 magnification. in case of mirage I back off to x40.

This is me. My scope never comes off 60X unless mirage warrants it. Vortex Golden Eagle with simple FINE crosshairs. I had been using a 24X previously. When I went to 60X, I've won the last 4 club matches. Finished 2nd at CMP Talladega.

 

[ebb]

I don't think lower power is a bad thing, but lower quality is. I shot a couple of groups with a 6 power hunter BR scope, it was 6 power to make the rules but a very high quality 6 power. I was looking for answers so I compared it with a 4x12 and on 9 or 10 power it was still not as good of a sight picture as with the high quality 6 power. On most days you can get away with a cheaper scope but, when there is no blue sky at all and the overcast is horizon to horizon and the sun is shining above the clouds, then the difference comes obvious. The cheap scopes look like viewing through a glass of milk and the good ones are as clear as on any other day. I don't see myself being able to afford good scopes anymore. I am sure there are more limitations on cheap scopes I have not discovered, but I am not looking too closely these days.

 

[jrh84]

Service rifle competitors routinely shoot <1 moa groups on reduced distance targets during the slow prone stage with a 4.5X power scope. Top level shooters shoot more shots in the 1 MOA X-ring than not at 600 yards.

If I'm practicing, I can usually put 5 rounds in 1.5-2" at 200 yards. Not every time, not for 20 shots, but most 5 round groups are at or just below 1 MOA.

I can say it requires decent vision, solid fundamentals, good trigger control, and a good shooting rifle and ammo combination, and intense concentration on the center of the reticle.

Top level Palma shooters are solidly <1 moa shooters with irons. They don't need no stinkin' scopes, high magnification or otherwise.

 

[Straightshooter1]

How the heck does that not freak you out ? Had a Muller 40x I think could see the flies in the target @100yd with pretty good detail but just couldn't shoot it too well because I could see my dang heart beat and every little movement I made ....abyw its because I don't have anything less then a 2lbs trigger but man I felt like I just just dancing the reticle all around that 1" target dot...
Keep saying I'll get something high mag and try training on it again

I know what you mean by seeing that heart beat as I use between 45 & 60X on my Golden Eagle. To minimize that, I found it helps to not snuggle the butt close to your "external carotid artery".

 

[Jeff Porter]

Service rifle competitors routinely shoot <1 moa groups on reduced distance targets during the slow prone stage with a 4.5X power scope. Top level shooters shoot more shots in the 1 MOA X-ring than not at 600 yards.

If I'm practicing, I can usually put 5 rounds in 1.5-2" at 200 yards. Not every time, not for 20 shots, but most 5 round groups are at or just below 1 MOA.

I can say it requires decent vision, solid fundamentals, good trigger control, and a good shooting rifle and ammo combination, and intense concentration on the center of the reticle.

Top level Palma shooters are solidly <1 moa shooters with irons. They don't need no stinkin' scopes, high magnification or otherwise.

It’s all about a repeatable sight picture in service rifle. With the 4.5x and a duplex I would “quarter the pie” and could favor inside of the 10 ring. When I switched to a 1/2 moa dot, I would center the dot in the circle of the xring. High X cleans with irons and low power optics are more common than you might think on the 2 moa 10 ring 1 moaXring targets. Not the same precision as an F-open set up on that tight target but sling shooters do well with the low power stuff.

 

[Texas Solo]

just couldn't shoot it too well because I could see my dang heart beat and every little movement

Learn to shoot between the heartbeats. Sniper training 101.

 

[chop house]

make empty spaces slightly larger than your reticle crosshairs, aim by making white space even all around

 

[TC260]

I used to shoot 2x and 4x pistol scopes a lot on Contenders mostly and accuracy can be pretty darn good as long as you have a target you can see clearly. I used to have targets that were roughly a 4" square but it was just a 1/2" thick black line around the perimeter, the center was blank. I don't remember the exact dimensions but that was the basic idea.

Anyway, I liked the open center because I could clearly see the reticle and equalize the 4 white quadrants around it. Sounds cumbersome but for my eyes it worked great. Just have to try different targets and see what works best.

 

[hoz53]

I normally put whatever scope I plan to use on the rifle in question and roll with it.

i could go with that Bill. Most of the CF rifles i shoot now i want at least a 12-42 variable on. only reason not to run those or higher for me is sometimes physical size. if i go hunting deer or bigger size game in future ill use smaller power scopes. 8.5 x25 leo——- lol

 

[K22]

What is your goal / shooting discipline? If your goal is just to shoot the smallest group possible then stop here, and igorne the rest of this post.

My approach is to qualify the rifle / scope / load as a system that I intend to use. As long as the system produces fairly consistent groups with a consistent point of impact within the needs of my intended use then that's all I need. I do not need to spend hours and components at the bench in a quest to wring out a few .1" reduction in group.

I understand the concept of a so called "floater scope" but for me, it would mean I would have to start all over with the scope I intend to use. That is just not acceptable to me from a time and cost perceptive. My goal is to get into practical practice / use mode as quickly as possible, honing my shooting skills. The sooner I master the system (rifle/scope/load) the better my performance will be. This means I have to define what is "acceptable accuracy".

The fact that you have modest magnification and heavy reticles seem to indicate that these features were selected to fit your intended use. So why would you want to temporarily install a high magnification scope with a thin reticle on the rifle to just develop a load then switch the scopes again and re-sight the rifle? You would be inducing a possible different eye box, cheek weld, and sight picture then changing it back. Then there is the mental uncertainly that might creek into your performance from this changing back and forth.

 

[Gary in MD]

I normally put whatever scope I plan to use on the rifle in question and roll with it. If it is of the low mag. type I match the size target up for the reticle and use the highest power I have.

Same here

 

[AlNyhus]

You can shoot great targets with a low power scope....the Hunter Benchrest competitors have been doing it for decades with the required 6X scopes.

But that's 'way different from doing load work and tuning by group size. When doing that with my Hunter Benchrest gun, a 36X is on it.

For a good 'load work' scope for someone not used to the 36X-ish scopes, I consider 16X to be the minimum. Lots of good dual purpose variables out there in that range. Sightron's 3-16 STac with the MOA3 reticle would be like hitting the Easy Button.

Good shootin' -Al

 

[JSH]

Quality optics for sure.
One thing I see over and over, guys show a target with the POA shot up.
I use POA just as that and have POI where ever, up,down, left or right.

 

[6.5 forever]

All of the movement you see with a high power scope is there with low power. You just don’t see it. You can’t hit what you can’t see.

Exactly!!

 

[6.5 forever]

The only time high power doesn't work for me is on a high mirage day. Then I turn it down.

 

[AccelR8]

View attachment 1650577

make empty spaces slightly larger than your reticle crosshairs, aim by making white space even all around

This would be my recommendation.

Way back when, my first scope was a fixed four power with a simple, fine cross hair. It came with a Remington 788 .222 package deal. When learning the rifle, cartridge and scope combination (had only shot irons up to that time) I struggled a bit with big round black bullseye targets. Then I happened to find targets that had four black squares about 1 ¼ or 1 ½ inches in size with the same size white space in the middle of the squares. Instantly improved my ability to sight in and soon I was shooting consistent ¾ inch groups at 100yards. Very easy to center the fine, simple cross hair between the squares.

 

[Coyotefurharvester]

I swap scopes around according to the task. I generally do 100 yard testing with one of my Sightron 4-20 stac moa2 reticle (about 1/4 inch dot on 20x). For my hunting/prairie dog rifles that is still enough mag. Changing a scope is a few minutes/2-5 shots at 100 yards. Especially easy when you have a good load/rifle.

 

[bsekf]

You will discover how bad your bench technique sucks when you get your first high power scope.