Accuracy VS velocities

[BartsBullets]

Bart, I am talking 308 Baer and 300 WSM with 200 plus grains of bullet. How many big boomers can shoot 1/4 MOA 10 shot groups at 100 yards? They are not like a Dasher or 6BR. You need to come to the WORLD OPEN. Over 30,000 in prizes. Matt

Matt

Nope! The three matches I list are the Crown Jewells of the IBS. The dashers aren't shooting 10 shot 1/4 of MOA either. I could go with 5 shots but not 10.

Bart

 

[BartsBullets]

Jim,

Don't forget how everything unfolded the weekend you agged 2.xxx/50.000 for 4 targets. If you look really close back at our pm exchanges, you'll see it wasn't actually the 100 yards "zero's" load that did that for you. If you recall, it was the same powder bullet combination, but a different seating depth and neck tension. I believe you told me that particular load was in the "one's". But yet it did something at 1000 that will be damn hard to match! I don't think any of us are saying that a combination that shoots hideous at 100 will somehow be great at 1000. I think we could certainly rule out certain combinations, but of course we can do that at 1000 also.

Tom

So as I have said. Here is a case of getting it dailed in at 100. Then tweaking it at distance.

 

[BartsBullets]

Come to deep creek, it's probably the only 1k venue where you'll find guys loading at the range. But I have to admit, my very best barrels have NOT needed tweaked. Not to say I'm not prepared however!

Tom

Tom,

A good barrel will do that for ya!

Bart

 

[BartsBullets]

W

Bart, You would need some 100' or longer poles at Whitehorse. You may need to get back in a chopper again to set them at 1000... LOl... Jim

Well that is a problem!

 

[jamesdmock]

Alex,

I agree with every word you wrote. But I've been doing this long enough that I can sort Benchrest BS from from what works.


When I started shooting 600 yard matches I was given advice by some very top shooters. I'll never forget when they set me down and said, "You can't use windflags because they don't work. We've tried and there's no correlation between the flags and where the bullet goes." That my friends is Benchrest BS. It's not that they were trying to lead me wrong. It's just that they don't have a lot of experience reading flags. In light or steady conditions the playing field levels out. However if you let it get switchy or conditions that Push and let off. Guys come off the line scratching their head wondering why their last shot nearly went off the plate. It happened at St Louis this weekend.

As far as flags at deep creek. I promise you that if you space three of them out to say 150 yards and you start shooting while they are blowing left to right. Then they swing right to left and you shoot. You aren't going to like it!

I'll throw this thought out there...it's a lot easier for a short range guy to transition into Mid and Long range shooting then a Long range shooter transitioning to short range. Short Range guys can read mirage, and wind flags and they learn to adjust their load on the fly. They know how to tune and how to test. All that's required is to tighten up on the reloading end of things to move to the 600 yard or 1000 yard bench competition. On the other hand All the meticulous reloading in the world won't save you at a short range match.


As for tuning at at 100 yards. I said it can get close. Then it just needs some tweaking at distance. If your gun shoots poorly 100 but great 1000. You're doing something wrong at 100.


Bart

Listen to Bart, for he knows of what he speaks. In about 2010, I started shooting 600 yard BR at a range about an hour's drive from home. With a background in short range BR, I placed my 4 flags at 100 yds, 250 yds, 350 yds, and 450 yds. There were several good F-class shooters competing and most told me that the flags would not help. One even stated that they confused him. Well, I struggled for the first year because I could not see my bullet holes and I was accustomed to shooting off the last shot in short range BR.

After adjusting to trusting my sighter shots on a gong and adding a wind probe to go with my 4 flags, I have had quite a bit of success. Now my flags are no longer lonely since most competitors use them. If you ignore the flags at 600 yards, you will get burned...I guarantee it. Good shooting....James Mock

 

[johara1]

I have a hard enough time at a 100 getting the conditions the same for 1 shot and waiting till it comes back for an other. You can not rattle them out and expect to learn anything if it doesn't hold. So how can you learn anything at 1000 with out constant conditions? without flags and they need to be in the path of the bullet. good barrel makes up for a lot of it .... Jim

 

[Alex Wheeler]

I have tried it. Ranges are all different. It has worked at some. What happens in the first 150 yards here is hardly going to show on the groups. Its not how the conditions here work. I have been there, tried it, and speak from actual experience. I came here with exactly your attitude about flags and thought the guys here were missing the boat. They were right, I was wrong, at this range. At your ranges I believe you, and especially at 600. If you ask guys that have agged well for years, with multiple barrels at 1k your going to find most tuning at 1k. 600 is a little different and you can get much farther with a 100 yard tune. Again, been there, done that. For the one time Jim has made it work theres a 100 times it didnt. Again talking 1k. Every good 1k shooter can make a gun shoot at least .2s with good es at 100. If it was that simple we would do it. Having to tune at 1k in a pain in the ass, finding a place to do it and catching the right conditions to be able to shoot and believe the data. If it was not necessary we wouldnt do it. I think the guys your arguing with have multiple agg records with different barrels to prove this. I am not sure why I still get into these threads. The guys that argue this just have not been there enough to see it because it becomes very obvious on the 1k line.

 

[johara1]

Maybe more than once but I never tuned at 1000 and I never practice I do everything at 100 very controlled as much as I can. I'm sure there are many ways to skin a cat, and this I found works for me. Being anal at 100 pays off at 1000, there are so many factors that enter the game at long range you can not single out one say this is it. It is a tirade ,a good barrel and bullets and reading the wind....... Jim

 

[jamesdmock]

Maybe more than once but I never tuned at 1000 and I never practice I do everything at 100 very controlled as much as I can. I'm sure there are many ways to skin a cat, and this I found works for me. Being anal at 100 pays off at 1000, there are so many factors that enter the game at long range you can not single out one say this is it. It is a tirade ,a good barrel and bullets and reading the wind....... Jim

+1 Amen

 

[dragman]

Hey Jim, Your plenty close enough one of these days maybe you can come over to my long range practice spot and do some playing out past 1000. I told Dave Short he needs to come out and play too just for the fun of it.
There is always conditions but in general you can see them and call them. That's how I have shot some 3" groups at over 1000 yards with holding 9+ minutes of wind.

 

[johara1]

It would be nice but.... I sold all of my long range stuff. I can't see that good anymore to be competitive... Hell I can't see the wind flags at 200, I have use a spotting scope.... Jim

 

[Northridge]

Lazy rocky mountain cold thermal layers as we have at deep creek in my experience are some of the hardest to judge vs other more obvious condition cycles on different geography settings. I actually prefer to shoot with more wind & mirage at this range I perform better just ask my fellow shooters at deep creek. Indicators are very useful at most ranges that's un disputable but how you process the information & use the info can be very different range to range. I would like to clue a few in though that think Tom Mousel is a non condition minded hope and prey haul the mail kind off shooter, your way off base. Will he stop midway through a string not a chance but every man I shoot with at deep creek brackets the conditions in some form In sighter period. The key if you watch someone like Tom or maybe myself is to no when to start that cycle of fire and how long you have with in a given cycle to get your shots off, & if there is a shift with in that series we have learned to make slight adjustment on the fly to keep those shots in the group. We are keeping track of conditions on the fly vs completely stopping. I can and do implement a version of this at all ranges but to say myself or someone like Tom mousel or Alex do not read conditions would be false just what we do with said info may be different.

Some of the funnest days I've had at deep creek are calm rolling days shooting f class. Morning go's like this records to be broke today boys. End of the day people are walking around in a mental fog going what what just happened!!!!

Shawn Williams

 

[BartsBullets]

I have tried it. Ranges are all different. It has worked at some. What happens in the first 150 yards here is hardly going to show on the groups. Its not how the conditions here work. I have been there, tried it, and speak from actual experience. I came here with exactly your attitude about flags and thought the guys here were missing the boat. They were right, I was wrong, at this range. At your ranges I believe you, and especially at 600. If you ask guys that have agged well for years, with multiple barrels at 1k your going to find most tuning at 1k. 600 is a little different and you can get much farther with a 100 yard tune. Again, been there, done that. For the one time Jim has made it work theres a 100 times it didnt. Again talking 1k. Every good 1k shooter can make a gun shoot at least .2s with good es at 100. If it was that simple we would do it. Having to tune at 1k in a pain in the ass, finding a place to do it and catching the right conditions to be able to shoot and believe the data. If it was not necessary we wouldnt do it. I think the guys your arguing with have multiple agg records with different barrels to prove this. I am not sure why I still get into these threads. The guys that argue this just have not been there enough to see it because it becomes very obvious on the 1k line.

Alex,

Are you reading what I'm writing. I have said multiple times. You still have to take it distance to see what you have. I don't care if it's 600 or 1000. That's why I show up the day before the match and tweak my rifle if necessary. With guys reloading at Deep Creek it sounds like there's some tweaking going on even if they tuned at 1000.

Reading windflags isn't easy. It's something that takes a lot of practice.
If no one has flags, or there's not much wind. There is no need to have flags.


The guy that you're arguing with has set multiple agg world records, 2 National 2 Gun titles, 2 National 4 Gun titles, besides the 17 Other wins at the National level. Not to mention wins at the Super Shoot and Regional Championships. Besides being one of a handful to ever make it into the Benchrest Hall of Fame!


So maybe, your way isn't the only way. What I do will work for 1000 yard shooting. However your method won't work at short range.

Bart

 

[Northridge]

If a guy were to have a. Multiple yard competition I would have a different formula or tune for a given yardage for group shooting.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

Alex,

Are you reading what I'm writing. I have said multiple times. You still have to take it distance to see what you have. I don't care if it's 600 or 1000. That's why I show up the day before the match and tweak my rifle if necessary. With guys reloading at Deep Creek it sounds like there's some tweaking going on even if they tuned at 1000.

Reading windflags isn't easy. It's something that takes a lot of practice.
If no one has flags, or there's not much wind. There is no need to have flags.


The guy that you're arguing with has set multiple agg world records, 2 National 2 Gun titles, 2 National 4 Gun titles, besides the 17 Other wins at the National level. Not to mention wins at the Super Shoot and Regional Championships. Besides being one of a handful to ever make it into the Benchrest Hall of Fame!


So maybe, your way isn't the only way. What I do will work for 1000 yard shooting. However your method won't work at short range.

Bart

Bart, I guess Im not sure why youd have to take it to 1k if the 100 yard tuning works? If the cone of dispersion is what happens, then tune to .1 with 10 es and you will shoot 2"s with good bullets. I loaded at the range so I could change powder charge for temp changes. I was using rl15 and we have large swings. Id load for each day. I would also tune at that range the day before a shoot. Actually it was my only tuning I would do. I live in a wind tunnel so I wont waste my time where I live. 100% of my tuning and loading was done at deep creek range on the match weekend. I really dont mean to come off as rude, but I am talking 1k agg records. Thats whom I want my 1k advice from. I have a few friends from your world. Dana English, Jim Borden, I would never convince them of this either. I think I have posted enough on LR tuning for a lifetime, its out there Im done on the subject. I know if I wanted to shoot a ppc, Id take the advise of you or Tony Boyer and run with it. So when guys Like Tom, Shawn, Mat Kline, leo Anderson, exc. talk 1k I listen.

 

[BartsBullets]

Bart, I guess Im not sure why youd have to take it to 1k if the 100 yard tuning works? If the cone of dispersion is what happens, then tune to .1 with 10 es and you will shoot 2"s with good bullets. I loaded at the range so I could change powder charge for temp changes. I was using rl15 and we have large swings. Id load for each day. I would also tune at that range the day before a shoot. Actually it was my only tuning I would do. I live in a wind tunnel so I wont waste my time where I live. 100% of my tuning and loading was done at deep creek range on the match weekend. I really dont mean to come off as rude, but I am talking 1k agg records. Thats whom I want my 1k advice from. I have a few friends from your world. Dana English, Jim Borden, I would never convince them of this either. I think I have posted enough on LR tuning for a lifetime, its out there Im done on the subject. I know if I wanted to shoot a ppc, Id take the advise of you or Tony Boyer and run with it. So when guys Like Tom, Shawn, Mat Kline, leo Anderson, exc. talk 1k I listen.

Alex,

The accuracy world doesn't evolve around 1000 yard Benchrest or what goes on at Deep Creek. It's not my intention to take anything away from you or Mighty Mouse's skill and accomplishments.

Not everyone has a 1000 yard range to tune at. My nearest a is about 400 miles away and I'm not a member. So, poor people have poor ways. You have to figure something else out.

As for flags if you know how to read them. They are an advantage. Not the end all be all, but an extra tool no matter if your shooting 100 or 1000. One of the best long range shooters of all time Sam Hall uses wind flags for 1000 yards and 600. I have watched him. So they may be useless at Deep Creek, but the seem to work everywhere else.

I predict As long range shooting evolves you will see more and more flags. This years 600 yard Nationals there were probably 10 times the amount of flags then at the 2015 Nationals. People are catching on.

Here's this years point total for IBS 600 SOY. You can add ten more points to my Total after this weekend's St Louis Match from Hell. Looks like Bart might shoot ok at 600 to! I'm not a one trick pony.

Bart

Bart

 

[AWLEAPHART]

You know when you don't have that warm fuzzy feeling that something is wrong.
Back in the winter months my rifle was around 2998 with a spread of 7to12 in five shots with a Alpha Chrony. Now using the G2 Caldwell and it's a lot warmer. My spread is bigger and it's showing that I'm slower. In my mind I was thinking I would fast in the summer with a winter load. I lined up both chronographs today with a quick 3 shots. G2= 2945 2952 2986 spread 41. Alpha Chrony 3051 3052 3056 spread 5. Im hoping this weekend to get out to the 600 yard range. I can wait
Anthony L

 

[BartsBullets]

You know when you don't have that warm fuzzy feeling that something is wrong.
Back in the winter months my rifle was around 2998 with a spread of 7to12 in five shots with a Alpha Chrony. Now using the G2 Caldwell and it's a lot warmer. My spread is bigger and it's showing that I'm slower. In my mind I was thinking I would fast in the summer with a winter load. I lined up both chronographs today with a quick 3 shots. G2= 2945 2952 2986 spread 41. Alpha Chrony 3051 3052 3056 spread 5. Im hoping this weekend to get out to the 600 yard range. I can wait
Anthony L

Anthony,

You need to sell those two chronographs and make good friends with someone that has a labradar.

With that said all that really matters is how your gun performs on the target!

Bart

 

[Northridge]

Bart, now that we have "drifted" in to the flag topic would you share with me & others what you look for in a series of flags across the course or things that seam to matter to you more with in that set of flags at a given yardage. How do you read flags at difference shooting venues different or not meaning 100 200 600 1000 etc. How does this flag data relate to mirage decisions etc. Thanks ahead of time.

Shawn williams

 

[AWLEAPHART]

Bart, now that we have "drifted" in to the flag topic would you share with me & others what you look for in a series of flags across the course or things that seam to matter to you more with in that set of flags at a given yardage. How do you read flags at difference shooting venues different or not meaning 100 200 600 1000 etc. How does this flag data relate to mirage decisions etc. Thanks ahead of time.

Shawn williams

+1 on that I dear.
Bart I have a good friend. Its you and no Im not a ass kisser.
Anthony L