Accuracy of electronic targets

[XTR]

I'm skeptical of this for the same reasons some have stated, inability to see the other targets, machine gunning matches chasing the spotter, and in particular running a national championship on a system that has had less than a yr to test, and doing so at a match with hundreds of shooters who have never used the system and are seeing it for the first time, but we will see.

Not being able to see other targets will improve your conditional reading skills. Machine gunning is just another skill ( but can cost big time) as is chasing the spotter.
Running national and/or state events is being done else where in the world so the system works. Fear of the unknown or fear that the system will uncover weaknesses of skills needed is more the reasons the NAYSAYERS speak out. The testing has been done all you have to do is install and use.

I'm pretty confident in my wind reading, in fact I personally think we should shoot 2 to a mound, but that is another conversation; however, using all the available information is a part of the game, and these systems have the potential for removing one of those. As to fast shooting, at Phoenix I overheard a guy you may have heard of (David Gosnell) say that if there is no delay in read outs he'll finish 20 shots in 2 minutes.

The "no pit duty" feature has been a part of more than one of these conversations. The quotes below from this thread just added to my pre-existing impression that there is a general dislike for pit duty:


6brmrshtr - The first time you don't have to go to the pits you will be sold on the new system

Berger.fan222 - I don't have a problem paying the extra to avoid pit duty.

And I will add that 200+ shooters showing up at a match who have never used an ET system there will be problems. Breaking it in at the national championships is not the best of ideas, but hey, maybe it will be all butterfly's and rainbows.

 

[Zilla]

My concern is that with no delay, it will change the game from F-Class to Benchrest.

 

[Bindi2]

Personally I think reading some body elses target is a form of cheating that had to be condoned because there was no way to stop it.
Two to a target/Bisley style is British shooting. My thoughts on that are we shoot string here (Australia) if you want to shoot Bisley go to England.
Most of us got broken in to ETs at our State champs. The uptake after that was fast. All regionals and most clubs have them or access for a fee to them.
Shooters mostly have sped up, machine gunning is a tool in variable conditions the trick is to stop then go again to stay on the same conditions.
You will be surprised how much better your reading will get by not watching other targets. You will also learn that range flags are poor suppliers of Data that you require because you don't or may not have access to next doors results. Personally I think most shooters become better shots on non disclosing ETs. I also have seen supposed good shooters fall because they lost the next door info because using that was all they could do.
I shoot with bench rest shooters shooting F-Class and their answer always has been to me bench rest and F-Class are to different matches and F-class can never be bench or bench rest F-Class for a whole lot of reasons. I must say I agree though there has been some learning both ways more to do with reloading and tuning.

 

[Ringostar]

My concern is that with no delay, it will change the game from F-Class to Benchrest.

The system can be set to report the shots back to you with a delay. Eg; it can be set to 8 seconds. That way every one gets equal pit service time.

 

[Bindi2]

Yes you can put a delay in.
The delay interferes with the shooters decision and operation of his/her shooting time on the mound hence their score.
NRA of Australia has ruled NOT to have delays in ETs.

 

[Zilla]

You are obviously a fan of electronic targets. Others I have talked to from Australia are not.
I will need to shoot on them to make an informed decision. I do have some concerns about them.

 

[DBailey]

You are obviously a fan of electronic targets. Others I have talked to from Australia are not.
I will need to shoot on them to make an informed decision. I do have some concerns about them.

I'm with you all the way. Heavy on the concerns.

 

[Bindi2]

You are obviously a fan of electronic targets. Others I have talked to from Australia are not.
I will need to shoot on them to make an informed decision. I do have some concerns about them.

Those that are not either have shot on poorly maintain ETs or have found they have lost something they were using to gain an edge ( the next door target) or shot to slowly not having the next door target to look at. All so most negativity is on the East coast enough said.
I started shooting in the 60s and now know I am in total charge of my shooting with ETs. I also shoot teams and have seen better scores shot at club level with more interest from new potential coaches at younger ages because of the real time data over paper.

 

[Zilla]

That's your opinion, I got it.

 

[SDDasher]

XTR- Obviously we disagree on what "grousing" means. That is synonymous with complaining where I come from.......telling another shooter the new system excludes pit duties is Not complaining about pit duties; it is pointing out a plus for the new system stream lining the process. I recall paid pullers being available at most major matches going back over thirty-five years of competing, many, I might add taking advantage were across the course hard cores shooting prone matches.
As with all my postings it is just my opinion; I do however take exception to someone twisting my words to fit another agenda.

 

[Bob Sebold]

I am a little reluctant to weigh in on this because deer hunting starts in Wisconsin soon and I will not be able to respond, But here goes. First, I have been told there will be a built in delay of I believe 7 seconds. Second, I have shot on them and can tell you they are more accurate than the average puller could ever be. Third, they will not be tried for the first time at the nationals, we will be shooting on them all year. If you want to find out about them come to any match this year and try them out. Also if you want to see the neighboring targets you can. Those of you that want to see these targets do not shoot with an 80 power scope! You can not see much other than you own target with those scopes. Cross fires are handled the same way you would with a puller. The scorer has to know you did not shoot! No difference.

Sooner or later someone will have the nationals with the first electronic targets. The first one will be the first one. I bet its Lodi. All the bugs, if any, will be worked out long before they ever get shot on in a match. Some of you guys need to put on your big boy pants! I think after you use them you will be very pleased. No shotgunning, all will have good pit service, and you can capture you numbered shots with a terminal velocity if you want.

When it comes to relying on pit pullers who do not sometimes do a good job, versus the shooters who get good pit service, you are at a disadvantage. At the Berger nationals I was lucky enough to get great service the entire match. Look at the results! This just takes one more excuse from everybody who shoots like shit. Is that what is bothering you? Let me know as I have plenty of other excuses you can use.

Come to a match, try them out. Then you can bitch if you want to.

 

[Berger.Fan222]

Come to a match, try them out. Then you can bitch if you want to.

You seem to be selling the features, not really the accuracy.

The only way to test the accuracy would be to put up a paper target before a shot string and compare the score of each shot between the paper and the electronic scoring.

Is that really being offered, or is this a shell game?

 

[Bindi2]

The delay will be a disaster for cross fires the scorer will not know who fired first.
The testing on accuracy has been done. If the accuracy was not there the system would not have got to where they have else where in the world you are not the first to use them.
As said go and use them before you condemn them.

 

[Immike]

Mr Sebold , how do we thank you people for your foresight. This is going to be a great natls! This will be a true even playing field for all of us. I am grateful and excited about this decision.

 

[XTR]

The delay will be a disaster for cross fires the scorer will not know who fired first.
The testing on accuracy has been done. If the accuracy was not there the system would not have got to where they have else where in the world you are not the first to use them.
As said go and use them before you condemn them.

Just like now, if 2 hits show up the shooter gets the high score and continues. That's not a problem for me.

 

[Scott Harris]

... First, I have been told there will be a built in delay of I believe 7 seconds. ...

Bob, that is GREAT news. I really don't want F-class to turn into benchrest. Good luck on your hunt.
Scott

 

[memilanuk]

Had an opportunity to shoot on a SMT target this week... so far that makes three - SMT, Hexta & Kongsberg - that I've shot across.

Everything seemed to work pretty well; the guys running the range were going to take the downloaded report files and compare them to the physical target centers. Seemed like it was working pretty well.

Did have one 'lost' shot, though. Not sure if it was due to interference - I was talking on the radio to someone in the pits right as the shooter fired the shot - or something else. If that was indeed the situation, then protocol can be put in place to address the issue - no radio comms during strings of fire.

Otherwise... the software end of things seems to be improving in leaps and bounds, which is about what I expected. Being a single target demo, we weren't able to play with any of the multi-target features. I was impressed with the overall interface - we had one laptop, a couple smartphones, and a couple tablets and they all seemed to work pretty well with it. The 'plot' mode was really nice (kind of like a plot-o-matic sort of interface). The chrono values didn't really seem to correlate to shot impacts on the target face in any recognizable way, at least @ 600yds. Low values would be a center X, high values might hit low, etc. Maybe it isn't enough distance for it to show; maybe an acoustic chrono just isn't that accurate?

Bob, I think one of the concerns wasn't that the targets wouldn't see any use before FCNC, but that its going to be one of the first large scale roll-outs for this particular system. How many times do you expect to have 30-35 targets in operation between now and then? Maybe the Midwest Palma? According to Forshee's website, there are 'over 100 targets' in operation around the world... which begs the question of how well they are going to function not 3-10 at a time, but 30+. How well is the system going to scale up? How much is interference is going to be an issue, etc.? All things that can certainly be addressed given enough time, no doubt - but *in time* for FCNC is another matter. I realize that someone has to be the guinea pig and take the chance

 

[Ringostar]

The Midwest Palma is a very big match, and will be a great test of the system. Shooters need to grasp that hits on the target face don't matter with this system. Your shooting for where the sensors tell you to. The target face down range is only an aiming point.

 

[Berger.Fan222]

As said go and use them before you condemn them.

Where can I use them and put up a paper target and compare the electronic scores to the holes in the paper target?

The last F-Class match I pulled targets for had several hits within 0.1" of the scoring edge. Can someone show me a test with paper targets that proves the electronic system properly scores these 100% of the time?

 

[Bindi2]

The delay will be a disaster for cross fires the scorer will not know who fired first.
The testing on accuracy has been done. If the accuracy was not there the system would not have got to where they have else where in the world you are not the first to use them.
As said go and use them before you condemn them.

Just like now, if 2 hits show up the shooter gets the high score and continues. That's not a problem for me.

If your shot is the bad one how do you know what alteration to make. Time delays will cause much anger and unhappiness.
Berger the acoustic centre maybe somewhere else other than the dead centre. This does not matter as long as the acoustic centre is constant because the monitor is showing the shot from dead centre of the acoustic centre there fore alterations are as normal. Just get your mind around acoustic hit not physical hit. Ideally they should be the same but it really is immaterial if they are not as long as the system is constant.
We have a target that the acoustic centre is a little to one side of dead centre the reading is correct when an overlay test is done to compare acoustic reading to physical.
Just go and shoot on some ETs.