Accuracy expectations

[jelenko]

I have split cards at 20 yds with a .22 pistol open sights
no big deal
I regularly shoot at pea gravel at that distance
So
I'm sure Miculek can shoot better than me if he can hit a balloon with a 9mm at 1000 yds

How many shots to split the card? How many times in a row?

 

[ELR LVR]

How many shots to split the card? How many times in a row?

2 shots, no warm up
then I proceeded to do the same with a rifle open sights
2 shots
first shot told me where the first shot landed and how much to compensate

 

[jelenko]

Hmm. In thinking about Smallbore and Air Rifle shot indoors, I'm thinking the top shooters regularly turn in 1 MOA or less off hand groups [the 10 ring on the 50ft target is .15" which would be ~ .9" at 100 yards]. So, maybe Miculek's 1 MOA at 100 yards is possible.

 

[ELR LVR]

Hmm. In thinking about Smallbore and Air Rifle shot indoors, I'm thinking the top shooters regularly turn in 1 MOA or less off hand groups [the 10 ring on the 50ft target is .15" which would be ~ .9" at 100 yards]. So, maybe Miculek's 1 MOA at 100 yards is possible.

I have shot 1 inch at 88 yds open sights with a .22 (prone, no sling, no bipod) Not Standing
that's when I was practicing a lot and working up to 100 yds.
then life got busy and I havent got back to it
I am actually better with a pistol standing
Can get within 1 foot of target at 400 yds, pretty repeatably
Thats as far as I can see and have enough sight elevation so is my limit
I have too many disciplines I practice and the open sight thing with .22 was more a fun honing type of discipline
I am more a Long range shooter
But shooting small with open sights correlates so I practice both you see.
it also correlates in the fact that when you become good with open sights you dont need to turn your scope up as high which is an advantage
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IE: 1 MOA open sights at 100 yds is the equivalent of using a 10x scope at 1000 yds and 20x at 2000 yds

 

[jelenko]

1 MOA open sights at 100 yds is the equivalent of using a 10x scope at 1000 yds and 20x at 2000 yds

How do you mean? 1 MOA is about 1" at 100 yards and 10" at 1000 yards. MOA is not related to the scope magnification.

 

[ELR LVR]

How do you mean? 1 MOA is about 1" at 100 yards and 10" at 1000 yards. MOA is not related to the scope magnification.

What I meant was
If a guy can shoot 1 MOA at 100 yds open sights
He can theoretically Shoot 1 MOA at 1000 yds with his scope set on 10x power
10 times the distance and 10 times the magnification =
is equal to the same sight picture as 100 yds with open sights

Another way to look at it is
Same guy could use a 2x Scope to shoot 1 MOA at 200 yds
etc

Of course at 1000 yds wind and things come into play but if conditions were perfect then yes
He should be able to shoot 10" at 1000 yds with 10x scope
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There is a reason the Military only outfitted their Snipers with 10x Unertls back in the day
This is the reason
Because they were first taught how to use open sights properly
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I first learned Long Range with Open Sights on a pistol so likewise
have that background before I transitioned to using scopes

 

[Jonnyofalltrades]

Shooting from rests is so enjoyable that guys rarely practice the type of shots they will encounter in the field.
I would WAY rather take a guy hunting who shot a 4 MOA group from a field position, over a guy who shot in the ones, but never did anything other than bench shooting.

2MOA from the bench is a bit suspicious, though. But if I'm not guiding him, I would just smile and nod.

 

[Lefty2506]

Hmm. In thinking about Smallbore and Air Rifle shot indoors, I'm thinking the top shooters regularly turn in 1 MOA or less off hand groups [the 10 ring on the 50ft target is .15" which would be ~ .9" at 100 yards]. So, maybe Miculek's 1 MOA at 100 yards is possible.

To be competitive in NCAA small bore, a shooter needs to be at least close to that 10 ring most of the time. For some crazy reason, off hand was my best position when I was competing. My Sr year, I rarely scored lower than a 94, and had several matches where I scored 95-96 points per target, and a few that were a little better than that. We had a few Olympic shooters in our conference, and my off hand scores were competitive with theirs. Unfortunately for me (and my coach) my prone scores sucked (by comparison). There were a few matches where I did better in off hand than I did in prone. Don't ask me how. 1 MOA from an unsupported standing position is absolutely doable, but those are NOT your average shooters and they are NOT shooting your standard hunting rifles. They are, however, shooting under some rather stressful circumstances. If you make a bad shot during the NCAA basketball tournament, its not hard for you and your team to recover. If you make a bad shot during the NCAA rifle tournament, its almost impossible to recover.

For me, knowing what my equipment will do off the bench is useful. When I look through a scope, I can see what MY wobble is. That plus the gun tells me if I can take the shot or not. There have been a few times where I had to stop and do some breathing exercises before shouldering the rifle again and taking my shot. Then there's archery where you also have to be able to judge distance pretty good....

 

[ohlongarmisle]

I went to the range today with an old friend. I just brought my 223 rem and a 22lr. My friend brought his deer hunting rifle chambered in 270win that he's been using for a few years. (Factory ammo only.) At 100 yards he was getting groups that were almost 2moa, and he seemed okay with that. I mentioned that if they look like that at 100 they are probably double that at 2 or 300. Plus shooting off hand from a tree stand, I think your kinda asking for trouble. This made him a little upset, but it should be noted that he's wounded a few and never recovered them over the years.

Am I being an ass here? I like my hunting rifles sub-moa 3 shot groups at 100 yards. Is that asking too much? What is your accuracy expectations for a deer hunting rifle?

Me personally i wouldn't keep any hunting rifle that couldn't do this at 100 ,yards individual requirements of others may vary.

 

[Webster]

I went to the range today with an old friend. I just brought my 223 rem and a 22lr. My friend brought his deer hunting rifle chambered in 270win that he's been using for a few years. (Factory ammo only.) At 100 yards he was getting groups that were almost 2moa, and he seemed okay with that. I mentioned that if they look like that at 100 they are probably double that at 2 or 300. Plus shooting off hand from a tree stand, I think your kinda asking for trouble. This made him a little upset, but it should be noted that he's wounded a few and never recovered them over the years.

Am I being an ass here? I like my hunting rifles sub-moa 3 shot groups at 100 yards. Is that asking too much? What is your accuracy expectations for a deer hunting rifle?

Maybe your friend doesn't have bench rest shooting skills. Just an average shooter. Are his 2 moa groups round? Have someone else with some bench skills shoot the rifle and see if it's better.

 

[DanSavage]

Never seen a .270 sporter shoot a tight group.

 

[DShortt]

Never seen a .270 sporter shoot a tight group.

That makes 2 of us.

 

[DanSavage]

The most important thing to note and test on a dear rifle .270 is your cold bore first shot. It may be more accurate, I shot more woodchucks with a 3/4 -1 moa .308 Winchester than any other cartridge because it’s what I had and it worked. I only had a couple misses that year, 20 some chucks all the way to my best kill at 450 yards.
The first shot with that rifle was always money, even though it would shoot 1moa

 

[dk17hmr]

2" group at 100 is only a 1" miss. Did the first shot go where it needed to?

I spend a lot of time and money working up loads for my hunting rifles and several are sub 1/2 moa guns at distance........ I also hunt with a recurve or longbow when I get the opportunity to archery hunt. Just know your limit.

 

[Lefty2506]

Never seen a .270 sporter shoot a tight group.

90s vintage Savage in their black Tupperware stock shooting factory 130gr Remington Core Lokt at 100 yds. I don't remember the specifics on the barrel, but it certainly wasn't a heavy or varmint contour. The rifle belonged to a friend of mine and it had been left to him by his dad who was also a close friend of mine. He wanted me to re-mount a scope for him (run of the mill 3-9x40). Knowing the family, this rifle was most likely purchased from Walmart. He had bought mounts, but they were for the newer receivers (post 2003), and he didn't understand why he couldn't get them to work. I installed the correct mounts, lapped the rings and mounted the scope for him. He wanted me to test 4 or 5 different factory loads for him to see what shot best from the rifle. This was almost a decade ago, so the shot sequence is a little questionable, but I believe that the first 2 shots (or maybe 3) of the day were further down on the target (bore sighted). I made an adjustment and then put the next shot in the bottom of the circle. Made another correction and then printed the 3 shot group. For a "cheap" off the shelf .270 shooting relatively cheap, run of the mill factory hunting ammo, call me impressed.

 

[Lefty2506]

The most important thing to note and test on a dear rifle .270 is your cold bore first shot. It may be more accurate, I shot more woodchucks with a 3/4 -1 moa .308 Winchester than any other cartridge because it’s what I had and it worked. I only had a couple misses that year, 20 some chucks all the way to my best kill at 450 yards.
The first shot with that rifle was always money, even though it would shoot 1moa

I have a Sendaro chambered in 25-06 that absolutely LOVED shooting the 115gr Winchster Silvertips over a stout charge of H4831SC. On its best day, it was literally cutting playing cards in half from 200 yds. I hate hunting with it because the first shot is always 1.5 moa high.

 

[DirtySteve]

Never seen a .270 sporter shoot a tight group.

I had a Voere Titan II, in 270 Win, that would put three shots touching each other. Voere was imported to the US by KDF. They were always known for accuracy. I sure wish they had not dumped all there time in money into caseless ammo or they would still be around.

 

[spencerhenry]

90s vintage Savage in their black Tupperware stock shooting factory 130gr Remington Core Lokt at 100 yds. I don't remember the specifics on the barrel, but it certainly wasn't a heavy or varmint contour. The rifle belonged to a friend of mine and it had been left to him by his dad who was also a close friend of mine. He wanted me to re-mount a scope for him (run of the mill 3-9x40). Knowing the family, this rifle was most likely purchased from Walmart. He had bought mounts, but they were for the newer receivers (post 2003), and he didn't understand why he couldn't get them to work. I installed the correct mounts, lapped the rings and mounted the scope for him. He wanted me to test 4 or 5 different factory loads for him to see what shot best from the rifle. This was almost a decade ago, so the shot sequence is a little questionable, but I believe that the first 2 shots (or maybe 3) of the day were further down on the target (bore sighted). I made an adjustment and then put the next shot in the bottom of the circle. Made another correction and then printed the 3 shot group. For a "cheap" off the shelf .270 shooting relatively cheap, run of the mill factory hunting ammo, call me impressed.

How many times were you able to get a group like that? I have seen many excellent groups by a rifle, but never able to do it again.

 

[David Milisock]

Hunting accuracy is putting one shot on target at what ever range within the capabilities of the rifle/shooter. A follow up shot if required but not desired.

Who cares if you can put 5 or 20 shots in a dime at 100 yards. You my walk 10 minutes, or 10 days, it all come down to 1 shot.

 

[Ed kof]

In the early 1980s I had a Remington 700 in 270 win. It loved 90 grain hornady and 130 Sierra bullets. One inch groups at 200 was very doable. That’s where I had zero set. Maybe not great but good enough for me. Edk