6 Dasher and Varget - First time out
- Thread starter bsumoba
- Start date
I decided my load today. it will be either 34 or 34.1 gr. I worked 0.1 above and below 34.0 gr and the 34.1 grain shot into a 4 shot .120 inch group. the 34.0 gr load was shooting into the low 2's consistently over 3 separate and consectutive 4 shot groups at 100 yards. I am about 20K out. looks like a nice, wide and stable load. should do well I hope. going to run it in a 3x1000 or 3x600 match next weekend.
CaptainMal
Silver $$ Contributor
Glad to read all this commentary. Seeing no pressure signs I have been shooting and winning with 33.5 grs. and the 105's. That's despite thinking it is too hot, yet seeing no pressure signs after testing to 33.7 gr.
3010 fps is the result.
3010 fps is the result.
falconpilot
Gold $$ Contributor
What are you guys calling pressure signs?? No disrespect meant to anyone here, but I understand what increasing freebore does to pressure and case capacity. Not calling anyone out or a lair, but I've NEVER seen a prime pocket stay tight pass 6 or 7 firings running a medium load, much less 34+ grains..In my experience, the two just don't go together...and my experience is I've shoot out 11 Dasher barrels in the past 8 years, so I do have experience in this matter.
I've running a .124 freebore...so when you look the the picture that I'm posting, note the the AOL is 2.440..I arrived at that number by taking one of my loaded rounds that is just touching the lands..that measures 2.410 with my .124 freebore and a hybrid bullet. I added .030 to that number to make it a .155 freebore that all you guys are talking about using. Please take note of the pressures that you are running...and that is at 70F....So, I feel that coming on here and telling guys that have never messed with a Dasher that it's safe to run 34+ grains is unsafe..but to each his own..
I've running a .124 freebore...so when you look the the picture that I'm posting, note the the AOL is 2.440..I arrived at that number by taking one of my loaded rounds that is just touching the lands..that measures 2.410 with my .124 freebore and a hybrid bullet. I added .030 to that number to make it a .155 freebore that all you guys are talking about using. Please take note of the pressures that you are running...and that is at 70F....So, I feel that coming on here and telling guys that have never messed with a Dasher that it's safe to run 34+ grains is unsafe..but to each his own..
Try with 41.48 gr. This is what my case capacity it closer to (just weighed it with H20).
All I can tell you is that on my second firing, primer pockets feel fine. There are no signs of pressure that I can see when inspecting the brass post fire. Primers look normal. No cratering. No heavy bolt lift. I also ran 12 consecutive rounds and never felt anything different or saw anything different in the brass or in the firing process or in the brass from shot 1 to shot 12.
I know quickload is a good program to determine this kind of stuff, but I am sure there are some variables that are just slightly off in your calculations. I just do not know what to say. I have talked to a few other people not on the forum and I highly respect their opinion and experience and what I am doing is not out of the norm either. Yes, I am probably VERY close to max pressure. Could be there is something a little different about my set up that is resulting in less pressure?
The brass might go a little faster than some other people, but that is also a part of the game. Like barrels. They will wear out.
All I can tell you is that on my second firing, primer pockets feel fine. There are no signs of pressure that I can see when inspecting the brass post fire. Primers look normal. No cratering. No heavy bolt lift. I also ran 12 consecutive rounds and never felt anything different or saw anything different in the brass or in the firing process or in the brass from shot 1 to shot 12.
I know quickload is a good program to determine this kind of stuff, but I am sure there are some variables that are just slightly off in your calculations. I just do not know what to say. I have talked to a few other people not on the forum and I highly respect their opinion and experience and what I am doing is not out of the norm either. Yes, I am probably VERY close to max pressure. Could be there is something a little different about my set up that is resulting in less pressure?
The brass might go a little faster than some other people, but that is also a part of the game. Like barrels. They will wear out.
falconpilot
Gold $$ Contributor
Bryan,
Wanted to update this a little..just installed a new barrel(30 1/2") 1-8twist 4-groove Kreiger on my Dasher. Over the past couple of years, I've quite using a crony, and just let the target tell me when I found a good load. I do all my testing at 600yards and won't settle for a load that doesn't shoot inside 2"'s at this distance. My usual .load of 32.7 grs is shooting horrible. So I loaded up to 33.1 grs today, and the gun put four shots touching with one out about a 1"-1 1/2" away. I assumed that from past experience, and quick l0ads, this was a really hot load and guessed my velocity around 3080 or so since this is where this load placed my past...this didn't show me any pressure signs at all today. I decide to break out crony..image my surprise when the numbers showed 2980 ave, when in the past, 33.1 grs pushed well above 3050... Went back to my shooting logs a couple of years ago to prove to myself I was remembering right..
So..couple of things I need to admit here...I was using a .104 freebore, and then switched to a .124. I don't think I can attribute the 100fps different to freebore, but it might play a small role...I'm convinced that the Varget we are getting today is a much slower powder than Varget of the past. This would also help explain the huge disparity in velocity sand pressure that I'm seeing on Quickloads as well..going out tomorrow and work g my way up to 34 grs..I know these guns shoot very well around 3040 range..
Wanted to update this a little..just installed a new barrel(30 1/2") 1-8twist 4-groove Kreiger on my Dasher. Over the past couple of years, I've quite using a crony, and just let the target tell me when I found a good load. I do all my testing at 600yards and won't settle for a load that doesn't shoot inside 2"'s at this distance. My usual .load of 32.7 grs is shooting horrible. So I loaded up to 33.1 grs today, and the gun put four shots touching with one out about a 1"-1 1/2" away. I assumed that from past experience, and quick l0ads, this was a really hot load and guessed my velocity around 3080 or so since this is where this load placed my past...this didn't show me any pressure signs at all today. I decide to break out crony..image my surprise when the numbers showed 2980 ave, when in the past, 33.1 grs pushed well above 3050... Went back to my shooting logs a couple of years ago to prove to myself I was remembering right..
So..couple of things I need to admit here...I was using a .104 freebore, and then switched to a .124. I don't think I can attribute the 100fps different to freebore, but it might play a small role...I'm convinced that the Varget we are getting today is a much slower powder than Varget of the past. This would also help explain the huge disparity in velocity sand pressure that I'm seeing on Quickloads as well..going out tomorrow and work g my way up to 34 grs..I know these guns shoot very well around 3040 range..
Tim Singleton
Gold $$ Contributor
I agree the 33.6 load with a littl seating depth changes would be what I would pursueBY1983 said:
Falcon Pilot, why don't you email your Rifle specs, data and speculations to Hodgdon and Quickload and request their input to this situation/experience?
It couldn't hurt and very well might reveal some interesting information. I for one would really like to hear their answers and I'm sure the other guys would also like to know. 8)
At the very least Hodgdon could tell you if your lot of Varget is on the slow side or whatever since each lot is tested.
It couldn't hurt and very well might reveal some interesting information. I for one would really like to hear their answers and I'm sure the other guys would also like to know. 8)
At the very least Hodgdon could tell you if your lot of Varget is on the slow side or whatever since each lot is tested.
falconpilot
Gold $$ Contributor
Turns out that its not a slow lot of varget after all...on a hunch, I loaded up a couple of rounds of Berger hybrids at 33.1 grains, and the velocitys went to where I'd expected them to be, and started getting signs of pressure..ie..click at top of bolt lift...loaded my Barts 105's all the way up to 33.9, no pressure and brought velocities up....the Barts are 75 fps slower than the Berger, but the Barts shoot a lot better. The 33.5 grains give me a 2.032" average five - five shot groups at 600, and velocity was 3015 average across the groups. I'm going to try the next node up and see if I can tighten the groups up..
Berger and Barts OAL is 2.375 for me..
Berger and Barts OAL is 2.375 for me..
So after 400-500 rounds (100 of it was fireforming), I could just not get one of the 6 dasher barrels to shoot the way it needs to shoot in order to win matches. It shoots ok for my friends and they would never know the difference. It shoots a 1/4" group sometimes, but over time it will open up to about a 3/8" or slightly bigger group on multiple 3-5 shot strings. As a result, I decided to make this into a fireforming barrel and to give to friends when we go out on shoots and they want to use my dasher.
I then decided to break in the other barrel I had chambered up. Took it to the range and did a little more rigorous break in process: 1-clean-2-clean-3-clean-3-clean. After this, it started to shoot a "standard" 33gr Varget load into around a 3/8" round group, so I decided to start the load development process. I had rounds from 32.8-33.8gr Varget, loaded about 5K out. I have a .155 FB by the way. I am using 105 hybrids, CCI450 primers.
As I worked up to 33.4, the groups started to tighten. 33.4-33.6gr produced a similar POA/POI shift and producing high 2's for 3-shot groups. After 33.6, the groups also started to open just slightly, but most importantly the POI was changing slightly so that indicated to me that I was moving out of the node. I went home and loaded up 33.4, 33.5, and 33.6 grains @ 5K out and cleaned the barrel well and went back out in the afternoon. Groups shot even better @ just around the 2's for all three powder charges (I didn't measure them but they were good). I chronographed the 33.5gr load that I used for foulers and was getting 3011 fps (right in the sweet spot) and 15 ES for 3 shots. Decided this was the node and went home, cleaned the barrel again and loaded up some rounds @ 33.5 gr with different seating depths.
The next weekend I went and shot some foulers and then started to shoot for groups. 5K out was good, but as I approached 10K out, the groups shrunk into the high 1's. I thought to myself...GREAT!!!!! Shot the rest of the loads and noticed that the seating depth range it would like is around 8-10K out. Again, went home and ate lunch, and did not clean the barrel, having only shot about 15-20 rounds in the AM. I loaded 15 rounds at 33.5gr Varget, seated 8K out. Shot 3 foulers, which both went into one hole and then shot a 3 shot and 4 shot group. The results are below at the red dots. Thought to myself, I got the load down! I chronographed 5 shots and ES was around 14 ES. Not bad!
The next day, I decided to stretch its legs as far as I could at my local range, which is only 200 yards. Loaded up the same loads and with a clean barrel, shot some foulers to get my 200 zero and then shot a 5 shot group. This was the first group shot at 200 yards (in white). If I remember correctly, it was a .57" edge-to-edge group, meaning a .15 MOA group. :
I chronographed 3 more shots after shooting a couple more similar, but slightly bigger (.22 MOA and .27 MOA, 5-shot groups), and I was now getting 3058 fps with 13ES. My barrel was sped up from the last time I went out. Hopefully thats the end of the speeding up. In 50-60 rounds, I had a load developed and am ready for the 2016 mid-range shooting season!
I then decided to break in the other barrel I had chambered up. Took it to the range and did a little more rigorous break in process: 1-clean-2-clean-3-clean-3-clean. After this, it started to shoot a "standard" 33gr Varget load into around a 3/8" round group, so I decided to start the load development process. I had rounds from 32.8-33.8gr Varget, loaded about 5K out. I have a .155 FB by the way. I am using 105 hybrids, CCI450 primers.
As I worked up to 33.4, the groups started to tighten. 33.4-33.6gr produced a similar POA/POI shift and producing high 2's for 3-shot groups. After 33.6, the groups also started to open just slightly, but most importantly the POI was changing slightly so that indicated to me that I was moving out of the node. I went home and loaded up 33.4, 33.5, and 33.6 grains @ 5K out and cleaned the barrel well and went back out in the afternoon. Groups shot even better @ just around the 2's for all three powder charges (I didn't measure them but they were good). I chronographed the 33.5gr load that I used for foulers and was getting 3011 fps (right in the sweet spot) and 15 ES for 3 shots. Decided this was the node and went home, cleaned the barrel again and loaded up some rounds @ 33.5 gr with different seating depths.
The next weekend I went and shot some foulers and then started to shoot for groups. 5K out was good, but as I approached 10K out, the groups shrunk into the high 1's. I thought to myself...GREAT!!!!! Shot the rest of the loads and noticed that the seating depth range it would like is around 8-10K out. Again, went home and ate lunch, and did not clean the barrel, having only shot about 15-20 rounds in the AM. I loaded 15 rounds at 33.5gr Varget, seated 8K out. Shot 3 foulers, which both went into one hole and then shot a 3 shot and 4 shot group. The results are below at the red dots. Thought to myself, I got the load down! I chronographed 5 shots and ES was around 14 ES. Not bad!
The next day, I decided to stretch its legs as far as I could at my local range, which is only 200 yards. Loaded up the same loads and with a clean barrel, shot some foulers to get my 200 zero and then shot a 5 shot group. This was the first group shot at 200 yards (in white). If I remember correctly, it was a .57" edge-to-edge group, meaning a .15 MOA group. :
I chronographed 3 more shots after shooting a couple more similar, but slightly bigger (.22 MOA and .27 MOA, 5-shot groups), and I was now getting 3058 fps with 13ES. My barrel was sped up from the last time I went out. Hopefully thats the end of the speeding up. In 50-60 rounds, I had a load developed and am ready for the 2016 mid-range shooting season!
Liven The Dream
Gold $$ Contributor
6 Norma Dasher , 30" Krieger 1-7.5 5R .
It gave me a hard time with Varget shot small then Big same load.
To date Norma Brass CCI 450, Varget 32.0 105 HB on the Lands.
Last Match F/Open 600 200-16 ,199-12 & 198-14 ??? What took me so long ?
The Big Question will it shot this good next time out ? Can I do my part ?
Very Happy with the Dasher Now.
Don
AV Vol 2959 SD 2.79
It gave me a hard time with Varget shot small then Big same load.
To date Norma Brass CCI 450, Varget 32.0 105 HB on the Lands.
Last Match F/Open 600 200-16 ,199-12 & 198-14 ??? What took me so long ?
The Big Question will it shot this good next time out ? Can I do my part ?
Very Happy with the Dasher Now.
Don
AV Vol 2959 SD 2.79
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