6.5 Creedmoor vs 308 Winchester

[Ray123]

Yep you've shown some real numbers the 308 is capable of but recoil in the end for many shooters shooting alot is what will kill that idea. Shooting super heavy bullets for that cartridge doesn't give real good looking drop data but it sure rocks when it's windy down there over half a mile. Guess that was my Point. When it gets gassing out, heavy 308 bullets can be advantageous at those ranges even tho the ballistic calculator shows otherwise. The 6.5 in the end will dominate by numbers simply from the pleasure to shoot standpoint.

Not making any caliber recommendation on what anyone should shoot...shoot whatever caliber you so desire,...I do. My 308s all have adequate muzzle breaks, as does the creedmoors, the 6 dasher, and others. I shoot a 300 RUM with 250 Atips from the prone at just under 3000 fps. Or a 50BMG, fired 70 rds prone on my last birthday to match my age...A half mile isn't particularly long...
Just pointing out, lots of people dog the 308 and give it the old factory ballistics numbers with the inefficient 168 or 175 MK bullets of many years ago...those old bullets will still work, for a practiced rifleman to a degree, but there are more modern options, in bullets and powder for those who choose to shoot 308, and they too can have some very respectable ballistics way past 1000 yards....and those big heavy bullets make a better bullet splash way out there, so you can spot on your own, as flight times go past 2 seconds. Number 1 rifle number 1 load in my Kestrel ballistics Elete is a 308 Win 200 gr SMK G7 .360 velocity 2856 fps confirmed BC for altitude and conditions in 8 twist Bartlein on a long action, in a MPA chasis. Check Hornadys site for fast twist and retaining higher BC....it's what I choose and I have 2, 6.5 Creedmoors just incase I desire to shoot that caliber, or a 6MM ARC, or a 6MM Dasher...maybe the 300RUM, or the 50BMG...try a 45/70 or 45/90 for your past 1000 yard shooting, a nice challenge...ya need alot of real estate as those big bullets skip out across the high desert several times after the first impact...

 

[284winner]

Not making any caliber recommendation on what anyone should shoot...shoot whatever caliber you so desire,...I do. My 308s all have adequate muzzle breaks, as does the creedmoors, the 6 dasher, and others. I shoot a 300 RUM with 250 Atips from the prone at just under 3000 fps. Or a 50BMG, fired 70 rds prone on my last birthday to match my age...A half mile isn't particularly long...
Just pointing out, lots of people dog the 308 and give it the old factory ballistics numbers with the inefficient 168 or 175 MK bullets of many years ago...those old bullets will still work, for a practiced rifleman to a degree, but there are more modern options, in bullets and powder for those who choose to shoot 308, and they too can have some very respectable ballistics way past 1000 yards....and those big heavy bullets make a better bullet splash way out there, so you can spot on your own, as flight times go past 2 seconds. Number 1 rifle number 1 load in my Kestrel ballistics Elete is a 308 Win 200 gr SMK G7 .360 velocity 2856 fps confirmed BC for altitude and conditions in 8 twist Bartlein on a long action, in a MPA chasis. Check Hornadys site for fast twist and retaining higher BC....it's what I choose and I have 2, 6.5 Creedmoors just incase I desire to shoot that caliber, or a 6MM ARC, or a 6MM Dasher...maybe the 300RUM, or the 50BMG...try a 45/70 or 45/90 for your past 1000 yard shooting, a nice challenge...ya need alot of real estate as those big bullets skip out across the high desert several times after the first impact...

To my point. People do underestimate it.

 

[Orr89rocz]

Not making any caliber recommendation on what anyone should shoot...shoot whatever caliber you so desire,...I do. My 308s all have adequate muzzle breaks, as does the creedmoors, the 6 dasher, and others. I shoot a 300 RUM with 250 Atips from the prone at just under 3000 fps. Or a 50BMG, fired 70 rds prone on my last birthday to match my age...A half mile isn't particularly long...
Just pointing out, lots of people dog the 308 and give it the old factory ballistics numbers with the inefficient 168 or 175 MK bullets of many years ago...those old bullets will still work, for a practiced rifleman to a degree, but there are more modern options, in bullets and powder for those who choose to shoot 308, and they too can have some very respectable ballistics way past 1000 yards....and those big heavy bullets make a better bullet splash way out there, so you can spot on your own, as flight times go past 2 seconds. Number 1 rifle number 1 load in my Kestrel ballistics Elete is a 308 Win 200 gr SMK G7 .360 velocity 2856 fps confirmed BC for altitude and conditions in 8 twist Bartlein on a long action, in a MPA chasis. Check Hornadys site for fast twist and retaining higher BC....it's what I choose and I have 2, 6.5 Creedmoors just incase I desire to shoot that caliber, or a 6MM ARC, or a 6MM Dasher...maybe the 300RUM, or the 50BMG...try a 45/70 or 45/90 for your past 1000 yard shooting, a nice challenge...ya need alot of real estate as those big bullets skip out across the high desert several times after the first impact...

Your results seem extremely hot for a 308. I’ve had 180 berger elites a tick over 2700 out of a 26”’barrel 308. I thought that was doing well

my 300 wsm has good node with 208 bergers at 2860… thats alot more case

 

[RegionRat]

Your results seem extremely hot for a 308. I’ve had 180 berger elites a tick over 2700 out of a 26”’barrel 308. I thought that was doing well

I agree. To push a 180gr to 2700 fps you are generating over 2900 ft*lbs of muzzle energy, in a platform where loads that generate 2800 ft*lbs can cause heavy bolt lift if we are not lucky. I have also seen it done, but at the cost of the brass.

@Ray123 , what kind of pressure estimate do you have for generating 3600 ft*lbs in 308 WIN?
Your numbers are pretty impressive, but a little alarming from a safety margin view.

I have seen some 308 heavy barrel match guns cover the overlap in performance to a 30-06 like the ones Orr89rocz mentioned, but these values of yours are even higher than the typical 3000 ft*lbs numbers for the '06.

Your 200 gr 308 WIN is at the level of a 300 WSM. Does it destroy the brass or is there some other technology at work, or in the powder you are using?

 

[XTR]

... 308 Win 200 gr SMK G7 .360 velocity 2856 fps .....

I am not challenging your reported numbers, but 200gr bullets from a 308 out of a 30" barrel are running in the range of 55000+ psi and on the edge of what will allow for reusable brass and a functioning bolt. At 2725 you start getting beyond those indicators. Running a 200gr 308 at the value you are reporting above is probably in range that most people should not try. I've destroyed the pockets in new Lapua Palma brass in one shot at much lower velocities.

 

[Laurie]

Well the TMKs are tipped and they do get there better. The BC improvement was a result of both the tipped bullet and boat tail design no doubt.

BC differences for the two models where both versions are dimensionally the same bar meplats (G7 BCs):

0.224" 77gn SMK ............ 0.193 TMK ............ 0.202

0.308" 155gn SMK ......... 0.237 TMK ............ 0.238

Source: Bryan Litz Ballistic Performance of Rifle Bullets Third Edition based on long distance range tests.

If they shoot well for you and you like them, excellent. Other bullets have significant differences between MK and TMK versions mainly affecting nose lengths and shapes, the largest single factor affecting drag, some with major boattail revisions too.

 

[Laurie]

For shooting which cartridge and load is better for 1000 yards? I have both a 6.5 RPR and 308 Savage Model 10.

Before people get too carried away in discussing the feasibilities of MVs from very, very high pressure loads in small primer brass, massively freebored chambers and long match barrels, it's worth returning to the original post and the rifles the OP actually owns and shoots, and for which he seeks advice.

 

[DocCarbon]

I've Never seen anything past 2730 Fps ,with MY 173 Gr. pulled match .30 Cal M72 bullets and that's compressed loads 4064 4895 IMR and most certainly DON'T run those in MY Gas guns .

IF I'm reaching out 1K yards or more ,I'm NOT using .308 or 06 . ,for paper 6.5 CM for other things .338 LP

 

[Ray123]

I agree. To push a 180gr to 2700 fps you are generating over 2900 ft*lbs of muzzle energy, in a platform where loads that generate 2800 ft*lbs can cause heavy bolt lift if we are not lucky. I have also seen it done, but at the cost of the brass.

@Ray123 , what kind of pressure estimate do you have for generating 3600 ft*lbs in 308 WIN?
Your numbers are pretty impressive, but a little alarming from a safety margin view.

I have seen some 308 heavy barrel match guns cover the overlap in performance to a 30-06 like the ones Orr89rocz mentioned, but these values of yours are even higher than the typical 3000 ft*lbs numbers for the '06.

Your 200 gr 308 WIN is at the level of a 300 WSM. Does it destroy the brass or is there some other technology at work, or in the powder you are using?

Nope, it doesn't destroy brass...I've shot hundreds of em, SR and LR primers reloaded 4 times so far... yep the 308 in 30" can be close to 300 WSM performance, in 24" or 26" barrels. If there is a secret, it's thinking outside the box, having a machine shop at home and being a retired machinist I get to experiment, as to what is possible. I can build a rifle in a day, mostly two cause I'm old. this 308 is built on a long action trued Rem 700, 4 oz trigger, Bartlein 8 twist 30" 5 r, MPA aluminum chasis, fitted for 30-06 mags.
I own the finish reamer, so all the bolt 308s have same chambers, this 308 barrel is throated for the new 200 SMK requiring a 9 twist, with my piloted PTG throating reamer. The secret to the new 200 gr SMK bullet is it's so long and "pointy" it requires a 9 twist, but that moves the bullet way out of the case in a long action giving closer to 30-06 case capacity with long bullets.
But you won't get there with a 10 twist and Varget. With A short action 10 twist might as well stick to the 200.2 Berger and varget, which also shoots good in my 8 twist, but has a shorter OAL and less BC. Most everyone uses mostly the same few established LR components, in the same twist, the gunsmiths or a factory rifle... when there is almost an unlimited amount of combinations and chambers, barrels, and twists to experiment with.
I realize most don't have accurate machine tools and the skill to machine their own rifle barrels, actions, or parts for experimental purposes to see what is possible with a 308 case, but rely on others who build to Factory specifications, and limitations. Most gunsmiths would tell ya get a 300 WSM as it fits their standard catalog of doing things. It's just what I found that is possible with current components in a 308 case with heavy bullets, long action, and a long 8 twist barrel feed em right out of the mag...lengthen the OAL to put the bullet way out there and you approach 30-06 capacities with a 308 case. You can do the same if ya want, or shoot whatever ya like...but it's accurate and shoots long strings well, especially when compared to the magnums I own.

 

[Ray123]

Nobody that I can see has mentioned the other factor that often bedevils 308 for long range use - terminal velocity. It's absolutely essential to stay above the speed of sound at the target, and almost as important to stay above 1,225-1,250 fps, below that being into the worst of trans-sonic turbulence / bullet instability. Ideally, the bullet should be at 1.2 MACH or higher at the target (over 1,350 fps).

This is what causes many problems with factory 'precision'/'tactical' rifles with their 24-inch barrels. Short of really piling pressures on, they simply can't produce high enough MVs to achieve those terminal speeds even with efficient heavy bullets. 26-inch barrels as some factory rifles have make a significant difference, but it's no coincidence that Palma Rifle, F/TR, British Commonwealth 'Match Rifle' use minimum length 30-inch barrels and another one to two inches is fairly common. 'Target Rifle/Palma Rifles also use 'tight-bore' barrels to increase MVs from the mandated 155gn bullets. F/TR and MR almost invariably use strong small primer brass and very stiff loads / pressures indeed to get the MVs people need.

The range environment also has a major effect. You can do things with 308 and 223 loads / bullets on a warm day in Raton for instance (~7,500 ft ASL) that simply won't work near sea level on a cool day because of the former's thinner air and reduced atmospheric pressure. Many of the amazing long-range feats you see on YouTube videos take place on hot, high altitude alfresco desert ranges.

The Australian couple that shoot a lot at extreme range...Shot a stock Remington 700 308 26" police barreled action installed in a chasis, at 3047 yards and hit the steel 2 times in a row, out of 10 shots tried. The load was Berger 200.2 X at 2505 fps. Why below trans sonic velocities at 3047 yds... Seems every thing they shoot is below the speed of sound at the distances they shoot. Go watch their videos...interesting and out there.

 

[Ned Ludd]

Some bullets seem to handle the transition to subsonic much better than others, which in severe cases apparently start to tumble when they reach trans-sonic velocities. This seems to be an inherent design issue with a given bullet, although you'd need to talk with someone much more knowledgeable in bullet design and external ballistics than I to tell you what specific design features promote stability during the transition to sub-sonic velocity. Bryan Litz has published some experimental data that suggests for bullets that don't transition all that well, bullet behavior within the trans-sonic region can be improved slightly by using a faster twist rate and/or slightly higher velocity. Nonetheless, some bullets just don't seem to suffer the same stability issues during the transition as others. Perhaps the 200.20X is one of those designs.

Ray - having read your above posts, I'm still curious as to how you can push a 200 gr bullet from a .308 case using a 30" at 2856 fps without being massively over-pressure i.e. >62K psi). I have a couple .308 Win rifles set up with a freebore so long that loaded 200.20Xs do not even have half a caliber of shank left in the neck. I could not generate much more case capacity without soft-seating the bullets just barely within the neck, but it wasn't necessary for my purposes to go with a long action. I'm not asking for any "proprietary" information, but I can tell you that I couldn't even come close to that velocity in these rifles without resorting to >70K+ psi pressure using typical single base powders such as Varget. Is it safe to assume that powder selection is the other key necessary to achieve those kinds of velocities at safe operating pressure?

 

[Laurie]

The Australian couple that shoot a lot at extreme range...Shot a stock Remington 700 308 26" police barreled action installed in a chasis, at 3047 yards and hit the steel 2 times in a row, out of 10 shots tried. The load was Berger 200.2 X at 2505 fps. Why below trans sonic velocities at 3047 yds... Seems every thing they shoot is below the speed of sound at the distances they shoot. Go watch their videos...interesting and out there.

Yes, I've watched several of their videos. As you say very interesting. I do know though that some of the things they do just don't work in UK conditions.

 

[Orr89rocz]

Ray - having read your above posts, I'm still curious as to how you can push a 200 gr bullet from a .308 case using a 30" at 2856 fps without being massively over-pressure i.e. >62K psi). I have a couple .308 Win rifles set up with a freebore so long that loaded 200.20Xs do not even have half a caliber of shank left in the neck. I could not generate much more case capacity without soft-seating the bullets just barely within the neck, but it wasn't necessary for my purposes to go with a long action. I'm not asking for any "proprietary" information, but I can tell you that I couldn't even come close to that velocity in these rifles without resorting to >70K+ psi pressure using typical single base powders such as Varget. Is it safe to assume that powder selection is the other key necessary to achieve those kinds of velocities at safe operating pressure?

Something slower burning must likely be used like re17 or powerpro 2000. I have used those two to hit 2700+ in a 26” with the 180 gr bullets. I could go faster as didnt see pressure yet but that was the node. FTR guys i think seem to run 200.2x to near 2600-2700 in 30” tubes. Varget seems popular and not the fastest powder. Most load data i seen posted on this forum dont go much faster regardless of freebore. You have 45-50’gr of powder capacity, just seems hard to believe that is enough to get 2800+ Unless super high pressure.

 

[whatsupdoc]

Not making any caliber recommendation on what anyone should shoot...shoot whatever caliber you so desire,...I do. My 308s all have adequate muzzle breaks, as does the creedmoors, the 6 dasher, and others. I shoot a 300 RUM with 250 Atips from the prone at just under 3000 fps. Or a 50BMG, fired 70 rds prone on my last birthday to match my age...A half mile isn't particularly long...
Just pointing out, lots of people dog the 308 and give it the old factory ballistics numbers with the inefficient 168 or 175 MK bullets of many years ago...those old bullets will still work, for a practiced rifleman to a degree, but there are more modern options, in bullets and powder for those who choose to shoot 308, and they too can have some very respectable ballistics way past 1000 yards....and those big heavy bullets make a better bullet splash way out there, so you can spot on your own, as flight times go past 2 seconds. Number 1 rifle number 1 load in my Kestrel ballistics Elete is a 308 Win 200 gr SMK G7 .360 velocity 2856 fps confirmed BC for altitude and conditions in 8 twist Bartlein on a long action, in a MPA chasis. Check Hornadys site for fast twist and retaining higher BC....it's what I choose and I have 2, 6.5 Creedmoors just incase I desire to shoot that caliber, or a 6MM ARC, or a 6MM Dasher...maybe the 300RUM, or the 50BMG...try a 45/70 or 45/90 for your past 1000 yard shooting, a nice challenge...ya need alot of real estate as those big bullets skip out across the high desert several times after the first impact...

Ray please tell me what powder and barrel length you are using to get a 200 SMK to 2856FPS in a 308.

Maybe I have it wrong or you have it wrong but there is no combination of components that I am aware of
that will make that velocity in a 308.

 

[Ray123]

Yes, I've watched several of their videos. As you say very interesting. I do know though that some of the things they do just don't work in UK conditions.

Yes, they shoot a large variety of cartridges from 22 LR to 375...and do very well, a great team. They also seem to have access to many miles of private land to shoot over...I have to drive a few miles..or get out of the forested mountains and into the high desert where you can see to the horizon...look out for rattlesnakes, I got bit by one...it didn't make a sound.

 

[Medic505]

HUMMM... It is the internet, and we know better.

 

[RegionRat]

The reason for the curiosity is the performance is astounding if correct.

For perspective:
308: 175 OTM @ 2668 fps in 26" bbl is 2766 ft*lbs energy
30-06: 200 gr @ 2688 fps in 26" bbl is 3209 ft*lbs energy

Ray's 308 WIN 200 gr @ 2856 is 3600 ft*lbs

It is roughly the same as a 300 WSM level of performance out of a 308 WIN.

 

[Twdmar]

Nobody seems to want to give an answer and get flamed but here goes. I think your 6.5 creed ruger will be superior. It is just easier to get it to perform at 1000 yds than the 308, which is a little more high strung for that distance.
I would not say it's better but just easier. There is pretty legit factory 6.5 ammo out there. The ruger may be easier to shoot well than the savage. Which has a better trigger?

And about plastic tips, I would imagine they are more consistent that normal hollow points. How many can you buy before you the equal the cost of a bullet pointing die?

 

[Ray123]

Ray please tell me what powder and barrel length you are using to get a 200 SMK to 2856FPS in a 308.

Maybe I have it wrong or you have it wrong but there is no combination of components that I am aware of
that will make that velocity in a 308.

I have posted the loads on this in accurate shooter, it depends on what bullet I'm using 200 gr SMK, 225 eldm, or 230 gr Atips. The barrel length and twist have been posted for those velocities on this thread. Sounds like your just trying to criticize, cause you haven't done it, so it can't be done. How can I have it wrong, it's a magneto speed chronograph readings. So, you basically call me a liar...you won't learn anything that way. My barrel is chambered and throated for the 200 gr SMK...I have tried many powders some outside the realm of the 308 burning rate...RL 26, 100 Hybrid V, Superformance, RL 17, Win 6.5 Stabal, MR 2000, plus all the conventional like Varget, 4064, RL 15, 4350, 4895, and a host of other powders. To date after exhaustive experiments the only powder are two, ...2000MR and 6.5 Staball, for the heavies. But you can't get there if your rifle is not at least a 9 twist and throated, I prefer the 8 twist... And that's more information than you deserve to know...according to your post you only looked at was a velocity you couldn't achieve...in your rifle. Mine is not a standard 308 chamber, throat, barrel or twist as stated. The barrel length has been stated many times...if all you wanted was the information it's already posted. But your welcome to use the information on your next 308 build and see how it performs for you...that's how the information is intended. It's NOT a 308 is better than,.... it's a 308 can be significantly improved up on.
Just in case anyone wanted to know what is possible today, with more modern components, not the old 22" barrel 12 twist 168 gr 2.80" load so often quoted and referred to.

 

[Ned Ludd]

Something slower burning must likely be used like re17 or powerpro 2000. I have used those two to hit 2700+ in a 26” with the 180 gr bullets. I could go faster as didnt see pressure yet but that was the node. FTR guys i think seem to run 200.2x to near 2600-2700 in 30” tubes. Varget seems popular and not the fastest powder. Most load data i seen posted on this forum dont go much faster regardless of freebore. You have 45-50’gr of powder capacity, just seems hard to believe that is enough to get 2800+ Unless super high pressure.

I suspected the use a double base powder such as PP2000MR or Re17 might be involved. Ray's subsequent posts confirm that. The reason I asked was because I'm sure there have been some F-TR shooters that saw the 2856 fps velocity with a 200 gr bullet and began salivating like Pavlov's dogs.

Unfortunately, I know a few F-TR shooters that have tried both PP200MR and Re17, and neither lived up to their expectations for the longs strings of fire we use in F-Class matches, typically 20-25+ shots. Not in terms of achievable velocity per se, because they achieved very high velocities using either one of those powders, as expected. However, the ones I personally know didn't stick with either of these powders for very long in competition due to their temperature-sensitivity properties. That was due in part to day-to-day, or even within a single day, temperature variance in the places I typically shoot. These individuals noted erratic velocity (vertical) and/or blown primers as the temps increased during the day, or when they shot on different days that were notably warmer than when they had done the load workups.

I believe anyone that really wanted use powders such as these to achieve much higher than typical velocities with heavy bullets out of a .308 Win could probably get them to work for F-Class matches. However, to do that right would require a lot more work during load development and acquiring velocity/temperature data over a wide range of temps. Loading with decreasing powder charge for each string of fire, a little guesswork, some luck, and careful attention to forecast temperatures would probably do the trick. Nonetheless, I suspect most F-TR shooters that have considered trying a double base powder, or already gone that route and returned to using Varget/N140/N150/etc., have decided it would simply be too much effort and/or not worth the risk of over-pressure issues during a match.