6.5 Creedmoor vs 308 Winchester

[Straightshooter1]

As others have said. It largely depends on what load you are shooting especially in 308. Don't be that guy trying to shoot 168 Sierras at 1000.

Yeah, 168 SMK's are a no-go for that distance. However . . . the new 169 SMK's may be a different story with the new design and higher BC??? I've got some good loads for the these 169's that are working well at 300yds. When I get a chance, I hope to see how they'll do at 1000. Anyone else try them at distance yet?

 

[284winner]

No doubt the 308 is an awesome cartridge. It has limitations but even setting a 225 ELDM in a 308 case and running it down range, it's extremely impressive considering case capacity. I have huge respect for it and I'll always have at least 3 in my safe. Bolt gun, auto loader and a black gun (AR10). They sit in my safe and always will be at arms reach.

 

[284winner]

Yeah, 168 SMK's are a no-go for that distance. However . . . the new 169 SMK's may be a different story with the new design and higher BC??? I've got some good loads for the these 169's that are working well at 300yds. When I get a chance, I hope to see how they'll do at 1000. Anyone else try them at distance yet?

The 169s better the old 168 by a tad but check out the 168TMK. They do great at 1000 yards. Nothing like the 168SMK. Tipped bullets get there much better

 

[Straightshooter1]

The 169s better the old 168 by a tad but check out the 168TMK. They do great at 1000 yards. Nothing like the 168SMK. Tipped bullets get there much better

Yeah, I've tried those TMK's and once I got the load configuration right, they did shoot very well . . . at least for short range. I never took them out the 1000. They kinda bugged me as they were quite finicky to get the loads to perform and because of that, I just stopped using them. I guess I'm just not patient enough for them.

 

[XTR]

I shoot a stoopid number of rounds from a 308 at targets at 1000 yds because that’s what we shoot in F-TR, but if we had the choice pretty much all of us would run a 260 or a 7 with similar case volume if we could.

 

[284winner]

Yeah, I've tried those TMK's and once I got the load configuration right, they did shoot very well . . . at least for short range. I never took them out the 1000. They kinda bugged me as they were quite finicky to get the loads to perform and because of that, I just stopped using them. I guess I'm just not patient enough for them.

It's the only bullet I shoot in my bolt 308 rifle anymore. They do well out to 1000 yards but I only hunt with them out to 600

 

[wkdickinson]

For shooting which cartridge and load is better for 1000 yards? I have both a 6.5 RPR and 308 Savage Model 10. I have good loads for 300 yards but have never shot 1000. Any suggested loads would be a great starting place for me. Thanks to all of you!

Back in the late 90's I shot a 308 at 1,000 yds. a fair amount and did reasonably well. M70 Win, Obermeyer 1:8.5 twist, 200gr SMK. I did well with it, but that was back in the day when the 300 Win Mag was king at 1K. Today, I have that same rifle set up in a 6.5 CM, Bartlien 1:8 5R. I haven't shot it at 1K, but at 600 it shoots really well.

 

[karrarararararar]

It's worth noting that .308 components have been fairly plentiful during this shortage. 175 SMKs are available in 500 round boxes almost all the time.

I've been told Sierra has two machines that never get reconfigured for other bullets. Those machines make the 175 SMK and 77 smk.

 

[karrarararararar]

Yeah, 168 SMK's are a no-go for that distance. However . . . the new 169 SMK's may be a different story with the new design and higher BC??? I've got some good loads for the these 169's that are working well at 300yds. When I get a chance, I hope to see how they'll do at 1000. Anyone else try them at distance yet?

I shot a couple stings at 1000 with them out of my Palma rifle back in the fall. They didn't seem to do any worse than my 155's in that day's condition and measured a little bit faster on the shot marker.

 

[Park ranger]

I shot a couple stings at 1000 with them out of my Palma rifle back in the fall. They didn't seem to do any worse than my 155's in that day's condition and measured a little bitter faster on the shot marker.

What’s you load in your Palma gun?

 

[karrarararararar]

What’s you load in your Palma gun?

45.8gr SW precision for 2875 fps. Rifle has a 1:12 32" barrel

 

[JB10]

My 6.5cm with 140 eldm is at 2,831fps. My 308 with 175 vld bergers is at 2,673. When i have shot them at 1k yards i had less adjustment for the cm and faster on plate hits than my 308. The 308 still did good but with more elevation adjustment. To me the creedmoor has slightly less recoil and more fun to shoot on my opinion.

 

[Ray123]

It all depends...I have 2, 6.5 Creedmoors....but 6 308s.
Compare old school 308 168 and 175 SMK match bullets, with new berger hybrids, or ELD-M. Is not comparing apples to apples.
Run the ballistics on my 308 loads
My long range 308s have 8 twists...just like the Creedmoors. And I shoot .715 BC 200 grs new SMK at 2856 Ave for an accuracy load...or 225 gr ELDM .777 BC at 2680 fps or Atip .823 G1 BC at 2620 fps. My 22" 9 twist 308 single load a 200 gr .715 BC SMK 2740 fps ..or an 18" AR 10 308 200 gr SMK at 2640 fps. So my 308 has over 3600 ft/lbs of muzzle energy with some loads. So the 308 if set up correctly has flat trajectory and lots of energy. Today I shoot my 308s much more than the 6.5 Creedmoors, they are gathering dust... The 6.5 Creedmoors lost its shine for me, I won't build another...I tend to go for the 308 and 6 Dasher,...always have ammo for the 308, from military junk or premium handloads...in hard times having ammo is nice. If I want accuracy and light recoil, I like the 6 Dasher. Just finished preping 1000 cases...they are all Win 308! LOL... Use what ever floats your boat.
I just milled the a perfectly good AR 10 reciever to run 2.940 length 308s out of the modified mag...Why? Because I can. Worthwhile? Probably not for most. But it's showing promise with long heavy bullets...3,000 ft/lbs of energy out of 18" 308....probably not your cup of tea.

 

[Ray123]

If we just use some typical values for high class factory loads, assume 1000 yds drop, and a 10 mph cross wind.
A Berger 6.5 CM 153.5 LR Hybrid leaves the muzzle at 2702 with a G7 BC of 0.356, drops -306.45, drift 61.48
A Berger 308 WIN 185 Jugg leaves the muzzle at 2608 with a G7 BC of 0.283, drops -379.57, drift 88.78

Those numbers speak for themselves in terms of which of the two will have a ballistic advantage on the range. In each of your rifles, getting high quality bullets, with a higher BC, is typically going to be the key when going out past 600 yards. In 308, 175 and up unless the rules restrict you. In 6.5, roughly 140 and up.

That said, if you shoot 308 in Palma, there are going to be many folks up and down the line also shooting 308 Palma, and they shoot to 1000 yards. Rules can vary, so check with the clubs near you.

If you shoot 6.5 CM, you will be going up against folks in open class, who will likely not be shooting 6.5 CM. The 284 WIN and the derivatives are very popular for highpower and F-Class at 1000, and then you see the short magnums and magnums show up too.

My advice is to shoot what you got, as much as you can, as far as you can, and learn wind. Getting ammo put together is difficult these days so what you have in hand is more important than what is better on paper in the short term. As you plan forward, go study what the better shooters are using in the games you are interested in joining. If you stick with those guns, then you are looking for the higher quality, higher BC bullets.

My best 308 load shoots .360 G7 200 gr SMK at 2856 fps... drop at 1000 is 262" wind 51.2" 1000 vel is 1755 fps and 1368 ft/lbs at 1000 yds.
Not all 308s are equal...I have 2, 6.5 Creedmoors, and 6 308s. I've been shooting 308 for 30 years, and 17,000 155 gr match loads, at 1000 to 1400 yds before going going to 8 and 9 twist barrels, and heavy bullets. You can get it done with 155 gr 308...not the best tool, but it will hit tiny targets at 1000 yds...if ya learn it...The 6.5 Creedmoor would most likely be easier... but just use what you have, often, and learn. Long time ago a guy in the Varmint Hunters club used a 17 Remington to hit a 1000 yard milk jug...it penetrated the jug and the bullet in the dirt behind the jug. As an experiment I hit a milk jug at 1000 yds with a 130 gr Speer 308 Varmint bullet about .240 G1 BC velocity 2640 fps...took 60 MOA to get there...it was subsonic for a long time... but putting em right in there...it didn't go sideways as some reported with the 168 gr...tried but I couldn't make it happen.

 

[284winner]

It all depends...I have 2, 6.5 Creedmoors....but 6 308s.
Compare old school 308 168 and 175 SMK match bullets, with new berger hybrids, or ELD-M. Is not comparing apples to apples.
Run the ballistics on my 308 loads
My long range 308s have 8 twists...just like the Creedmoors. And I shoot .715 BC 200 grs new SMK at 2856 Ave for an accuracy load...or 225 gr ELDM .777 BC at 2680 fps or Atip .823 G1 BC at 2620 fps. My 22" 9 twist 308 single load a 200 gr .715 BC SMK 2740 fps ..or an 18" AR 10 308 200 gr SMK at 2640 fps. So my 308 has over 3600 ft/lbs of muzzle energy with some loads. So the 308 if set up correctly has flat trajectory and lots of energy. Today I shoot my 308s much more than the 6.5 Creedmoors, they are gathering dust... The 6.5 Creedmoors lost its shine for me, I won't build another...I tend to go for the 308 and 6 Dasher,...always have ammo for the 308, from military junk or premium handloads...in hard times having ammo is nice. If I want accuracy and light recoil, I like the 6 Dasher. Just finished preping 1000 cases...they are all Win 308! LOL... Use what ever floats your boat.
I just milled the a perfectly good AR 10 reciever to run 2.940 length 308s out of the modified mag...Why? Because I can. Worthwhile? Probably not for most. But it's showing promise with long heavy bullets...3,000 ft/lbs of energy out of 18" 308....probably not your cup of tea.

Yep you've shown some real numbers the 308 is capable of but recoil in the end for many shooters shooting alot is what will kill that idea. Shooting super heavy bullets for that cartridge doesn't give real good looking drop data but it sure rocks when it's windy down there over half a mile. Guess that was my Point. When it gets gassing out, heavy 308 bullets can be advantageous at those ranges even tho the ballistic calculator shows otherwise. The 6.5 in the end will dominate by numbers simply from the pleasure to shoot standpoint.

 

[Fuj]

I've been told Sierra has two machines that never get reconfigured for other bullets. Those machines make the 175 SMK and 77 smk.

A lot of that production goes to IMI Israel. MIL/Match ammo.
It's some of the best.

 

[Laurie]

The 169s better the old 168 by a tad but check out the 168TMK. They do great at 1000 yards. Nothing like the 168SMK. Tipped bullets get there much better

The acetyl tips in themselves make little difference apart from looking nice and letting the manufacturer increase the price substantially. They give a marginal BC improvement, also add value in making the meplat very consistent and reducing variable drag effects. However, with a few exceptions (eg 308/155; 224/77), the TMKs are completely new designs whose shapes are generally far superior to the equivalent older MKs, especially the 168gn weight pair. A major difference is that the TMKs all have longer, lower angle boattails. The over-abrupt angle change on the 168gn MK is what produces the transsonic speeds turbulence and instability that makes the old 168 a short-mid distance bullet.

 

[Laurie]

Yeah, I've tried those TMK's and once I got the load configuration right, they did shoot very well . . . at least for short range. I never took them out the 1000. They kinda bugged me as they were quite finicky to get the loads to perform and because of that, I just stopped using them. I guess I'm just not patient enough for them.

They have a very different nose length and form compared to the older 168 SMK which is why they are harder to 'tune'. The 168 TMK's nose section is 0.783" length, has a 13.73 calibres radius; Rt/R ratio of 0.54. The older SMK's nose is 0.690; 7.19 cal radius; Rt/R 0.90. Rt/R is a metric that describes the nose to shank angle change. 0.50 is what you get on the classic Bill Knox / Walt Berger VLD bullet form that also have nose radius values of 12 to 14 cals. 1.0 Rt/R is a true tangent ogive shape, so the older bullet's form is pretty close to there; the tipped version is a secant ogive VLD form. The same applies to the 175gn pair, but even more so as the plain old HPBT MK has a perfect 1.00 Rt/R value to make it a true tangent ogive whilst the TMK is another quasi-VLD secant ogive nose job.

The plus of course for the TMKs is that their designs are much reduced drag compared to the same weight HPBT MKs which for the same bullet weight gives useful BC increases.

 

[Laurie]

Nobody that I can see has mentioned the other factor that often bedevils 308 for long range use - terminal velocity. It's absolutely essential to stay above the speed of sound at the target, and almost as important to stay above 1,225-1,250 fps, below that being into the worst of trans-sonic turbulence / bullet instability. Ideally, the bullet should be at 1.2 MACH or higher at the target (over 1,350 fps).

This is what causes many problems with factory 'precision'/'tactical' rifles with their 24-inch barrels. Short of really piling pressures on, they simply can't produce high enough MVs to achieve those terminal speeds even with efficient heavy bullets. 26-inch barrels as some factory rifles have make a significant difference, but it's no coincidence that Palma Rifle, F/TR, British Commonwealth 'Match Rifle' use minimum length 30-inch barrels and another one to two inches is fairly common. 'Target Rifle/Palma Rifles also use 'tight-bore' barrels to increase MVs from the mandated 155gn bullets. F/TR and MR almost invariably use strong small primer brass and very stiff loads / pressures indeed to get the MVs people need.

The range environment also has a major effect. You can do things with 308 and 223 loads / bullets on a warm day in Raton for instance (~7,500 ft ASL) that simply won't work near sea level on a cool day because of the former's thinner air and reduced atmospheric pressure. Many of the amazing long-range feats you see on YouTube videos take place on hot, high altitude alfresco desert ranges.

 

[284winner]

The acetyl tips in themselves make little difference apart from looking nice and letting the manufacturer increase the price substantially. They give a marginal BC improvement, also add value in making the meplat very consistent and reducing variable drag effects. However, with a few exceptions (eg 308/155; 224/77), the TMKs are completely new designs whose shapes are generally far superior to the equivalent older MKs, especially the 168gn weight pair. A major difference is that the TMKs all have longer, lower angle boattails. The over-abrupt angle change on the 168gn MK is what produces the transsonic speeds turbulence and instability that makes the old 168 a short-mid distance bullet.

Well the TMKs are tipped and they do get there better. The BC improvement was a result of both the tipped bullet and boat tail design no doubt. Either way, my personal end result will keep me using them. Price is still much less than other options.