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6.5 Creed velocities with 140/142's?

Simply not true at all. Do you see guys that shoot 6BR or Dashers in 1,000 yard benchrest using 24" barrels? No they use 30" and sometimes longer...and the BR has less capacity than a 6.5 Creed.
You don't cite velocities, I notice. You assert that their popularity proves ipso facto that they must produce more velocity than a 24" barrel. But your observation's irrelevant in any case, I don't care about any 6mm, BR or Dasher, only specifically 6.5 Creedmoor. The barrel chop study I cited lays out the complete velocity data for your inspection. Did you find the study is flawed? If so, in what way?
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Velocity does not peak at 24" no matter what the artricle says. Take that with a grain of salt. The Creedmoor was based off a 28" barrel. You get more speed with a longer barrel with H4350 burn rate powders.

In my 27" I get 2850fps with the 140 ELD and 2820fps with the 147 ELD. My 28" is at 2880fps with Factory 140 ELD load. As a comparison for the above conversation the same lot 140 ELD factory load in my 27" is 2820fps so no velocity lost going longer.

That Rifleshooter article has done more to spread bad info than anything as it's posted everywhere on Facebook when Creedmoor barrel length is mentioned. Not sure how they managed what they did but seeing the slow velocity they were getting with the 142s I am guessing it was either barrel or load related.
What you don't know are the velocities those exact same loads would produce if you cut your barrels to 24 inches.
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I do know as my first barrel I had set back almost 2" and velocity dropped.

If you want to hang your knowledge on that one test then go for it but I have been shooting the Creedmoor for quite some time and my first barrel length was recommended by one of the creators of the cartriddge who I know as I shoot for Hornady. If you talk to anyone who knows about the cartridge and cartridges in general they will roll their eyes at that test.
 
I'll settle this...

Brian356,
You shoot your 24" barrels, tell yourself that's all the velocity you will ever see and live happily ever after.

Everyone else shooting a 6.5 Creed,
Shoot longer barrels with appropriate powders if you wish and achieve the faster speeds you are looking for.

Debate over.
I don't own a Creedmoor rifle. Nor do I own a 24-in barrel. This is not a debate. I simply cited empirical evidence (a controlled experiment with complete data) and all I get in rebuttal are anecdotes, assumptions, speculation, and argumentum ad verecundiam. If you're going to prove the experiment flawed, then prove it flawed. Where and how did the test go wrong? Don't just say everyone knows it can't be true, and cite the popularity of 30" barrels.
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I don't own a Creedmoor rifle. Nor do I own a 24-in barrel. This is not a debate. I simply cited empirical evidence (a controlled experiment with complete data) and all I get in rebuttal are anecdotes, assumptions, speculation, and argumentum ad verecundiam. If you're going to prove the experiment flawed, then prove it flawed. Where and how did the test go wrong? Don't just say everyone knows it can't be true, and cite the popularity of 30" barrels.
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And there it is. No actual experience. Don't believe everything you read. I only said I may agree with you in a previous post because you sounded like you've tested this yourself.

The 6.5 Creedmoor is not a case with magical case capacity that defies the results of using longer barrels we all have seen with so many other cartridges. Heck there's guys on here that actually shoot the 6.5 CM cartridge trying to tell you this isn't true.

I know this isn't true. Youre the one who needs to test this for yourself to see that the claims are false. There are plenty of powders that will give much better velocities in a barrel longer than 24"
 
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And there it is. No actual experience. Don't believe everything you read. I only said I may agree with you in a previous post because you sounded like you've tested this yourself.

The 6.5 Creedmoor is not a case with magical case capacity that defies the results of using longer barrels we all have seen with so many other cartridges. Heck there's guys on here that actually shoot the 6.5 CM cartridge trying to tell you this isn't true.

I know this isn't true. Youre the one who needs to test this for yourself to see that the claims are false. There are plenty of powders that will give much better velocities in a barrel longer than 24"
You are spot on, there's nothing magical about 6.5 Creedmoor. It has a modest case capacity compared to nearly every other 6.5, the notable exception being Grendel.

My mind is wide open. I invite you to cite a powder of your choice, with velocity data for a particular load at both 24 and 28 (or 30) inches of barrel, all else being identical (rifle, cartridge, and ambient conditions, of course. I.e. a barrel chop test.)
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You are spot on, there's nothing magical about 6.5 Creedmoor. It has a modest case capacity compared to nearly every other 6.5, the notable exception being Grendel.

My mind is wide open. I invite you to cite a powder of your choice, with velocity data for a particular load at both 24 and 28 (or 30) inches of barrel, all else being identical (rifle, cartridge, and ambient conditions, of course. I.e. a barrel chop test.)
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Like stated before. This 24" barrel theory may be correct with H4350 and 140gr bullets. But I'd be willing to bet with RL23 or RL26 you would see about a 30 fps gain per inch of barrel over 24" up to maybe 28". Ive never tested barrels over 28" so I'd have to leave my experience at that.
 
Primer-Figure-2.png

A lot of people are shooting 32 inch barrels in FTR for the reasons depicted in that chart. Basically the powder burns rapidly, building pressure rapidly and dropping off rapidly a first and then more gradually as the bullet makes its way to the muzzle. However, as long as the pressure is high enough to overcome the friction of the bullet against the interior of the barrel and the atmospheric pressure, increasing acceleration will be the result. It would take a very long barrel for the pressure to drop low enough for the bullet speed to drop below it's peak velocity prior to exit from the barrel. These are the physics of the sport we are engaged in. If someone claims to have experiments which run counter to these physics, I'd speculate that there is something wrong with their experiment.

That aside, I'm getting about 2800 fps using H4350 from a 28 inch barrel with Berger 140 hybrids. I've tried higher and lower charges which yield increased and decreased velocities but 40.9 gives me the best accuracy at an acceptable velocity.
 
Primer-Figure-2.png

A lot of people are shooting 32 inch barrels in FTR for the reasons depicted in that chart. Basically the powder burns rapidly, building pressure rapidly and dropping off rapidly a first and then more gradually as the bullet makes its way to the muzzle. However, as long as the pressure is high enough to overcome the friction of the bullet against the interior of the barrel and the atmospheric pressure, increasing acceleration will be the result. It would take a very long barrel for the pressure to drop low enough for the bullet speed to drop below it's peak velocity prior to exit from the barrel. These are the physics of the sport we are engaged in. If someone claims to have experiments which run counter to these physics, I'd speculate that there is something wrong with their experiment.

That aside, I'm getting about 2800 fps using H4350 from a 28 inch barrel with Berger 140 hybrids. I've tried higher and lower charges which yield increased and decreased velocities but 40.9 gives me the best accuracy at an acceptable velocity.
I agree, except for one small item: Acceleration is never increasing here, it is decreasing constantly. The acceleration (instantaneous positive slope of the velocity curve) is greatest immediately after the bullet starts moving. By 26 inches down bore, acceleration is slight.

But that detail aside, I agree your graph shows acceleration even at 30 inches in the example 308 Win load. The key question is at what distance down the bore does a 142-gr bullet stop accelerating ahead of a max charge of H4350 in 6.5 Creedmoor? Can you plot that?
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Like stated before. This 24" barrel theory may be correct with H4350 and 140gr bullets. But I'd be willing to bet with RL23 or RL26 you would see about a 30 fps gain per inch of barrel over 24" up to maybe 28". Ive never tested barrels over 28" so I'd have to leave my experience at that.

No it's not as H4350 gives more velocity from 28" barrel compared to a 24" barrel. As I mentioned earlier I shot the same factory ammo loaded with H4350 in a 28" and the set back 26" and velocity was less in the 26". Also shot the most recent loading of the 140 ELD in my 27" and 28" barrels and it was faster in the 28" barrel.

This whole thread is a waste as it's one guy who knows nothing about the cartridge except a single test in a gun magazine and he is trying to tell people who have actual experience with the cartridge for many years and as I mentioned I got the info from one of the cartridge designers and a ballistician that says different. Brian believe what you want but no matter how many times you write it you are still wrong.
 
I would have to go with experience on this. Rob01 has been using the cartridge for a long time and does compete with it. Different disciplines tend to migrate to what works for them as to barrel lengths. As to velocity/vs barrel length I don't think anyone is going to prove the designers of the cartridge wrong. There are too many variables to place trust on just one test.

I do use the 6.5 Creedmoor and my experience is much the same as Rob01's.

Joe
 
No it's not as H4350 gives more velocity from 28" barrel compared to a 24" barrel. As I mentioned earlier I shot the same factory ammo loaded with H4350 in a 28" and the set back 26" and velocity was less in the 26". Also shot the most recent loading of the 140 ELD in my 27" and 28" barrels and it was faster in the 28" barrel.

This whole thread is a waste as it's one guy who knows nothing about the cartridge except a single test in a gun magazine and he is trying to tell people who have actual experience with the cartridge for many years and as I mentioned I got the info from one of the cartridge designers and a ballistician that says different. Brian believe what you want but no matter how many times you write it you are still wrong.

Shhhhh, don't let brians356 hear this...I was just trying to console him a bit with mentioning the H4350 theory may be true. We know it isn't true ;)
 
If you're going to prove the experiment flawed, then prove it flawed. Where and how did the test go wrong? Don't just say everyone knows it can't be true, and cite the popularity of 30" barrels.
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If you are going to cite one experiment and proceed to assume the results are fact....that is the flaw!. One experiment when the vast knowledge base says otherwise? ........Sheesh! If under several different circumstances and different experimenters, the same results are obtained then I would begin to make some conclusions of fact.
 
If you are going to cite one experiment and proceed to assume the results are fact....that is the flaw!. One experiment when the vast knowledge base says otherwise? ........Sheesh! If under several different circumstances and different experimenters, the same results are obtained then I would begin to make some conclusions of fact.
I'm not insisting the test I cited cannot be flawed in some way, or that the result must be valid. But unfortunately it's the only such barrel chop test for 6.5 Creedmoor I can find. The procedure seems simple enough, and I cannot detect where it might have gone off the rails. There is one variable which stands out - the testing was performed in cold ambient conditions: temperature of 23f. Could that have affected a greater-than-max (Hodgdon data) load of H4350 enough to cause velocity to peak at only 24 inches?
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I'm not insisting the test I cited cannot be flawed in some way, or that the result must be valid. But unfortunately it's the only such barrel chop test for 6.5 Creedmoor I can find. The procedure seems simple enough, and I cannot detect where it might have gone off the rails. There is one variable which stands out - the testing was performed in cold ambient conditions: temperature of 23f. Could that have affected a greater-than-max (Hodgdon data) load of H4350 enough to cause velocity to peak at only 24 inches?
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Nope. I have shot down in the teens and 20s at matches and at home and no issues. H4350 is not really effected by lower temps.

The one thing that stands out to me is how slow that 142 load is. If you have a 27" barrel and can't break 2700fps with a 142 then there is an issue. Something is flawed there as the simple fact is you don't lose velocity from 24" to 28".
 
Nope. I have shot down in the teens and 20s at matches and at home and no issues. H4350 is not really effected by lower temps.

The one thing that stands out to me is how slow that 142 load is. If you have a 27" barrel and can't break 2700fps with a 142 then there is an issue. Something is flawed there as the simple fact is you don't lose velocity from 24" to 28".
I wonder if the test barrel had a really tight bore? Or was rough? About the only explanation I can think of is higher-than-normal friction.
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I agree, except for one small item: Acceleration is never increasing here, it is decreasing constantly. The acceleration (instantaneous positive slope of the velocity curve) is greatest immediately after the bullet starts moving. By 26 inches down bore, acceleration is slight.
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That is not correct. The "rate" of acceleration decreases over time/distance. The bullet however continues to accelerate. Between 25 and 30 inches it accelerates an additional 50-150 fps. The bullet never decelerates while in the barrel. It would take a very long barrel for that to happen.

But that detail aside, I agree your graph shows acceleration even at 30 inches in the example 308 Win load. The key question is at what distance down the bore does a 142-gr bullet stop accelerating ahead of a max charge of H4350 in 6.5 Creedmoor? Can you plot that?
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It would look much the same. With a slower burning powder one would assume that pressure would not peak as rapidly. Couple this with a lighter projectile in a more confined space (6.5 mm bore verses a 30 cal bore) the rate of acceleration would also not taper as rapidly. Picture the pressure curve peak shifting a bit to the right and perhaps tapering slower while the acceleration curve remains steeper. If you want to read more on the subject google "time-pressure curves".
 
That is not correct. The "rate" of acceleration decreases over time/distance. The bullet however continues to accelerate. Between 25 and 30 inches it accelerates an additional 50-150 fps. The bullet never decelerates while in the barrel. It would take a very long barrel for that to happen.



It would look much the same. With a slower burning powder one would assume that pressure would not peak as rapidly. Couple this with a lighter projectile in a more confined space (6.5 mm bore verses a 30 cal bore) the rate of acceleration would also not taper as rapidly. Picture the pressure curve peak shifting a bit to the right and perhaps tapering slower while the acceleration curve remains steeper. If you want to read more on the subject google "time-pressure curves".
We are saying the same thing. What you said that I disagreed with was (emphasis added):

"as long as the pressure is high enough to overcome the friction of the bullet against the interior of the barrel and the atmospheric pressure, increasing acceleration will be the result".

Yes, the bullet is still accelerating, but acceleration is not increasing! It is actually decreasing (while velocity is still slightly increasing.) You could have said " ... increasing velocity will result ...".
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We are saying the same thing. What you said that I disagreed with was (emphasis added):

"as long as the pressure is high enough to overcome the friction of the bullet against the interior of the barrel and the atmospheric pressure, increasing acceleration will be the result".

Yes, the bullet is still accelerating, but acceleration is not increasing! It is actually decreasing (while velocity is still slightly increasing.) You could have said " ... increasing velocity will result ...".
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Yes, you are correct. We are saying the same thing. The bullet continues to accelerate (albeit at a lower rate) which means that velocity continues to increase (also at a lower rate). I've seen that article which purports to say that a longer barrel results in reduced velocity. That would not be possible until the barrel exceeded any reasonable expectation of what a barrel should be be.
 

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