400 to 600 PD options?

[Lefty2506]

I have to admit I'm very confused by a discussion where people are saying they want to be able to shoot prairie dogs at 600 to 1000 yards with very low BC varmint bullets, and then claim barrel life will effect accuracy.

I'm very skeptical of the "burned up barrels" claims.

I'm not super concerned about barrel life. Just trying to understand what to expect, and what kind of results I can expect compared to what I'm currently shooting. Realistically, a $400 barrel every few years is a small cost compared to all the ammo it sends down range in that time. Now, if I'm only getting 1000 rounds, that's probably not going to work for me.

As far as the 223 goes, I'm just surprised at how well the 75gr stuff holds up against the rest. I've always known it hit above its pay grade, just didn't realize by how far. Ballisticly, it's at least equal to a 6BR or XC that's pushing anything 90gr or under. Admittedly, I probably used some conservative velocities for those 6mm loads, but even if I gave them another 150 fps, they really don't pull away from the 223 by a noticeable amount.

Good point on the accuracy in regards to heat. I don't ever recall things opening up on my 600 yd strings in high-power, and I doubt I'd be shooting much faster than that. I just notice the posts mentioning 3 shots and then waiting for the gun to cool, and that's not practical IMHO for prairie dogs. I'd be okay with 10 rounds, but so long as a person isn't trying to run the gun fast, seems like you should be able to go 15 or 20 rounds before giving the rifle a break.

 

[urbanrifleman]

I'm not super concerned about barrel life. Just trying to understand what to expect, and what kind of results I can expect compared to what I'm currently shooting. Realistically, a $400 barrel every few years is a small cost compared to all the ammo it sends down range in that time. Now, if I'm only getting 1000 rounds, that's probably not going to work for me.

As far as the 223 goes, I'm just surprised at how well the 75gr stuff holds up against the rest. I've always known it hit above its pay grade, just didn't realize by how far. Ballisticly, it's at least equal to a 6BR or XC that's pushing anything 90gr or under. Admittedly, I probably used some conservative velocities for those 6mm loads, but even if I gave them another 150 fps, they really don't pull away from the 223 by a noticeable amount.

Good point on the accuracy in regards to heat. I don't ever recall things opening up on my 600 yd strings in high-power, and I doubt I'd be shooting much faster than that. I just notice the posts mentioning 3 shots and then waiting for the gun to cool, and that's not practical IMHO for prairie dogs. I'd be okay with 10 rounds, but so long as a person isn't trying to run the gun fast, seems like you should be able to go 15 or 20 rounds before giving the rifle a break.

You are correct.

I also love the 223 Ackley. I shoot the 50 TNT at 3750 with LT32.

 

[Lefty2506]

You are correct.

I also love the 223 Ackley. I shoot the 50 TNT at 3750 with LT32.

I thought about going to a .223 Ackley at some point. I have so much 5.56/.223 stuff that I'm not sure I'd gain enough in performance to make it worth new dies and having to keep the brass from getting mixed in with anything/everything else. I've sorted several thousand pcs of 223/5.56 brass in the last few years based on head stamps and I've reached a point where I'm just not doing it any more. If I want something different, it has to be something different

 

[urbanrifleman]

I thought about going to a .223 Ackley at some point. I have so much 5.56/.223 stuff that I'm not sure I'd gain enough in performance to make it worth new dies and having to keep the brass from getting mixed in with anything/everything else. I've sorted several thousand pcs of 223/5.56 brass in the last few years based on head stamps and I've reached a point where I'm just not doing it any more. If I want something different, it has to be something different

Honestly 22xc and shoot mild loads. I bet you would love it. Very sweet and brass is cheap.

 

[Dgd6mm]

You are correct.

I also love the 223 Ackley. I shoot the 50 TNT at 3750 with LT32.

I'm curious Bradley, what twist barrel?
On the box it state's for barrel's no faster than 1-10, also not to exceed 3400 fps.
I'm considering this bullet for several cartridges.

 

[urbanrifleman]

I'm curious Bradley, what twist barrel?
On the box it state's for barrel's no faster than 1-10, also not to exceed 3400 fps.
I'm considering this bullet for several cartridges.

I've shot them in 12 and 8 twist. Here is my fiance shooting the 50bk in her 8 twist UrbanRifleman prefit.

 

[Lefty2506]

Honestly 22xc and shoot mild loads. I bet you would love it. Very sweet and brass is cheap.

Admittedly, I might be missing something here. With humility, I'm really not understanding what I would gain by shooting a mild load from a 22xc (or 22BR, 22ppc, ect) instead of shooting a 75gr bullet from a 223 at 2950 fps. The XC would certainly be flatter, but the drift is going to be within a few inches. If I'm going through the effort and expense of getting a different cartridge, it seems like I'd be better off going with a 6mm and a 105-108gr bullet because I gain more wind.

 

[alf]

If I'm going through the effort and expense of getting a different cartridge, it seems like I'd be better off going with a 6mm and a 105-108gr bullet because I gain more wind.

6 Dasher would be great, or 6x47 Lapua if you want a little more oomph.....

 

[urbanrifleman]

Admittedly, I might be missing something here. With humility, I'm really not understanding what I would gain by shooting a mild load from a 22xc (or 22BR, 22ppc, ect) instead of shooting a 75gr bullet from a 223 at 2950 fps. The XC would certainly be flatter, but the drift is going to be within a few inches. If I'm going through the effort and expense of getting a different cartridge, it seems like I'd be better off going with a 6mm and a 105-108gr bullet because I gain more wind.

Like I said before, the BC for the 88 ELdM is actually better than a typical 105 6mm. Finding 105 6mm bullets that blow up might be a challenge. Except for the 103 ELDx. Which runs nearly 50 cents each. Where the 88 ELdM is closer to 25 cents.

Just food for thought.

 

[rmeyerwy]

From 1996-2014 I shot pd from a bench every year. This was my vacation. My shooting partner and I have more kills out 1 mile plus than you can shake a stick at. We shot at pd out to 2 miles. Never killed at that distance but have kills out to 2300 yards. I have a good idea of what I'm talking about.
A chassis will not work as good as a MBR in a bag and a rest and a MBR will not work as good as a chassis laying on the ground shooting prone. That's why I asked the question of what way are you shooting bench or prone.
Just because you wouldn't shoot from a bench lots of people do. It's not slow. It's not easy to move around. We hardly ever moved once set up. Plus we had done it enough, we had a good program and it worked well for us.

Jghunter,
What kind of a setup do you use to shoot that far at a pdog? I dont think I can even see one at 2300 yards with my setup. You must have a better stick than I got for sure...

 

[Lefty2506]

Like I said before, the BC for the 88 ELdM is actually better than a typical 105 6mm. Finding 105 6mm bullets that blow up might be a challenge. Except for the 103 ELDx. Which runs nearly 50 cents each. Where the 88 ELdM is closer to 25 cents.

Just food for thought.

Ahh, gotcha. I missed that on the 88gr. I was focused on the 223 and the 6xc when I was looking at that info. It's always been my opinion that the 223 doesn't have enough capacity to make good use of anything heavier than 75gr, but the bigger 22s would certainly be able to push the 88 ELD. At 3,250 fps, the 88gr has a just a little less drift than the 105gr 6XC, but is significantly flatter, cheaper to shoot, and I would imagine a little lighter on the recoil. It makes complete sense as a long distance PD setup.

It would surprise me if any of the high BC bullets had enough expansion at 2,000 fps (or less) to avoid ricochets. I'm just not comfortable shooting towards anything except dirt and more prairie dogs. If live stock moves in to the area, I'm willing to reposition, or move to another dog town.

 

[alintx]

Just build a straight 6br with an eight twist. You will thank me later

 

[Lefty2506]

Just build a straight 6br with an eight twist. You will thank me later

That would drop me down to essentially the same performance I currently get from my .223 bolt gun with a 75gr ELD except that I have to buy a new rifle, new optics, new dies, new bullets, and develop new loads.

No thanks.

 

[pdog06]

So me not being a PD Hunter or ever seen one how big of a target we talking about, is most any hit fatal

This was a decent sized pup. Some are smaller and the adults will be a couple inches bigger and fatter, but blow up just as easy.

Shoutout to Brad for the Urbanrifleman 6br barrel 200yd head shot!

Yes it’s usually fatal. Unless you hit one in the leg. Then they run around in a circle till you get another shot in them.

 

[Dgd6mm]

That would drop me down to essentially the same performance I currently get from my .223 bolt gun with a 75gr ELD except that I have to buy a new rifle, new optics, new dies, new bullets, and develop new loads.

No thanks.

So, what cartridges have you narrowed it down to?

 

[wildcatter]

400 to 600 on Varmint I would never build a fast twist heavy bullet. You are using a setup intended for hitting steel or small groups in paper.

I want a projectile that will still have the ability to open up and transfer some shock and internal carnage. The bigger and slower the are only going to poke a hole in and out.

I myself consider this ideal yardage for my 10 twist 6BR. Groundhogs and coyote size game are at the far end of my terminal performance acceptability with 55 to 60 grain bullets.


I want good barrel life and still do the job. I think a 6×47L would be the largest I would build for this use. If I were wanting anything beyond 600, I would use the 6mm Remington AI, with the same 10 twist barrel, and increase to a 80 to 95 grain bullet. With an 87 grain V-max or 95 grain Bibs up around 3500 fps for the added wind bucking and still get performance from my bullet inside the animal.

I tried a 8 twist and found in my 6mm AI it would not give the accuracy above 3150 it would between 3000 and 3150 fps, as well as suffer badly for terminal performance much beyond 500 yards.

Where I come from if you can't walk out and kick em,,, you can't count em! I've lost to many hit and didn't stay down before getting to their den not to know I need my bullet to do more than just poke a hole in and out at longer range.

My biggest asset for long range out to 600 yard kills with that 6BR, is my Ziess Z-Varmint reticle, coupled with the finest spot range estimating Leica R1200 rangefinder.

All Leica rangefinders use the smallest diameter range finding Lazer beam in the industry. This allows for a smaller field of view being ranged. Important for low angle long range, reading less in front and behind my target

Couple that with Z-Varmint retical which has cross hairs marked for 3 4 5 and 6 hundred yards, with hashes every 50 yards. That are spot on when used with Ziess hunting software to calibrate them at given powers for the exact bullet, coefficient, speed, and scope height, being used. And I have proven it dead on out to the 600 yards it was designed for when zero'd at 200 yards.

Mine is the 6.5-20x with side parallax, a sweet setup dedicated to out to 600 yards, with in my belief the most efficient cartridge when properly loaded for that purpose.

 

[Lefty2506]

So, what cartridges have you narrowed it down to?

6xc or 6x47, with the 6xc being the most likely option. Long term goal would be to have a 6xc and a 22xc. Need to chat with urbanrifleman more to understand whether or not a Remage barrel system would allow me to do a barrel swap in the field as that would give me some flexibility down the road.

 

[Lefty2506]

400 to 600 on Varmint I would never build a fast twist heavy bullet. You are using a setup intended for hitting steel or small groups in paper.

I want a projectile that will still have the ability to open up and transfer some shock and internal carnage. The bigger and slower the are only going to poke a hole in and out.

I myself consider this ideal yardage for my 10 twist 6BR. Groundhogs and coyote size game are at the far end of my terminal performance acceptability with 55 to 60 grain bullets.
View attachment 1483609

I want good barrel life and still do the job. I think a 6×47L would be the largest I would build for this use. If I were wanting anything beyond 600, I would use the 6mm Remington AI, with the same 10 twist barrel, and increase to a 80 to 95 grain bullet. With an 87 grain V-max or 95 grain Bibs up around 3500 fps for the added wind bucking and still get performance from my bullet inside the animal.

I tried a 8 twist and found in my 6mm AI it would not give the accuracy above 3150 it would between 3000 and 3150 fps, as well as suffer badly for terminal performance much beyond 500 yards.

Where I come from if you can't walk out and kick em,,, you can't count em! I've lost to many hit and didn't stay down before getting to their den not to know I need my bullet to do more than just poke a hole in and out at longer range.

Fair point, and I DO respect your position. For me, I don't honestly care whether I get expansion at 700 yds or beyond. Ideally, I would get expansion, but realistically, a 6mm projectile at 2000 fps will do enough damage to satisfy me whether it expands or not. If I were harvesting fur, it would be a different story but I'm not. I'm shooting a varmint that will literally eat its neighbor given the opportunity. I'll make the most ethical kills that I can, and a high BC projectile to the boiler room will kill faster than a thin-skinned varmint bullet that rips off a limb or gets blown far enough off course at 300 yds to miss all together at 700.

 

[wildcatter]

Fair point, and I DO respect your position. For me, I don't honestly care whether I get expansion at 700 yds or beyond. Ideally, I would get expansion, but realistically, a 6mm projectile at 2000 fps will do enough damage to satisfy me whether it expands or not. If I were harvesting fur, it would be a different story but I'm not. I'm shooting a varmint that will literally eat its neighbor given the opportunity. I'll make the most ethical kills that I can, and a high BC projectile to the boiler room will kill faster than a thin-skinned varmint bullet that rips off a limb or gets blown far enough off course at 300 yds to miss all together at 700.

We are talking 400 to 600, for longer range their are better choices! That 95 grain Bibs has the same coefficient as the 108's, will hold its accuracy in a 10 twist barrel, and easily do it at 3500 fps. A 8 twist will not allow both accuracy and speed, if it could, they'd be using cases big enough to do that in 600 and 1000 yard competition. 17 to 25 caliber cartridges used for varmint just can't do that,,,, again Physics.

So I'll have my cake and eat it to! Wind bucking coefficient, at speeds well above 2300 fps in a bullet that will still open up.

if i wanted pelts, id use that 105 or 108 bullet, decades doing this has proven, the bigger bullets in any caliber will do less damage in any given caliber.

Like I said, it only works without terminal performance on pin point shots, brain or heart. And no one is going to make them perfectly at those ranges, not even benchrest shooters of benches and bags in hunting conditions without flags.

At 2000 fps, a heavy bullet pokes a hole in and out, but if a vital organ is not hit, it crawls off. That is just a fact of physics. Again, if I can't kick em, I can't count them, for me hits are no better than misses if I can't kick it and see what damage I did, on any animal.

 

[Dgd6mm]

6xc or 6x47, with the 6xc being the most likely option. Long term goal would be to have a 6xc and a 22xc. Need to chat with urbanrifleman more to understand whether or not a Remage barrel system would allow me to do a barrel swap in the field as that would give me some flexibility down the road.

With the neccessary tools and a short amount of time you'd get quite fast at swapping barrels in the field.