.308 Suitable to 1000

[dcali]

Here's what one adventurous person did.

David Tubb shot 250 grain Sierra HPMK bullets 2150 fps from a 308 Win chambered rifle's 1:8 twist barrel in the 1988 Palma Team tryouts the year before. Beat the pants off the others using lighter bullets in somewhat windy conditions.

Their new 30 caliber 230 grain HPMK should do better.

The trouble with the really-heavies is the drop. There are some weird less-intuitive results with lower than normal velocities, though. We tend to forget how rapidly drag force increases with velocity. Run the numbers on a 200 grain hybrid (or similar), fired at 1000 fps. The damn things will hit the ground before they hit 950 fps.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

 

[Steve Blair]

The trouble with the really-heavies is the drop. There are some weird less-intuitive results with lower than normal velocities, though. We tend to forget how rapidly drag force increases with velocity. Run the numbers on a 200 grain hybrid (or similar), fired at 1000 fps. The damn things will hit the ground before they hit 950 fps.

Depends upon the goal. Shooting unknown distance, less drop will yield less error. Shooting known distance, it makes little difference. Note the two attached charts. Both are loads that I've shot from F-TR rifles. The 230 Hybrid total drop is ~25% more than the 155 Hybrid at 1000 yards, but the 230 Hybrid maximum ordinate is only 16 inches higher. My experience is that the vertical difference is of no consequence in 1k KD shooting. The lateral wind displacement difference is a big deal. Both have advantages and disadvantages.

 

[Bart B.]

The trouble with the really-heavies is the drop. There are some weird less-intuitive results with lower than normal velocities, though. We tend to forget how rapidly drag force increases with velocity. Run the numbers on a 200 grain hybrid (or similar), fired at 1000 fps. The damn things will hit the ground before they hit 950 fps.

500 grain lead bullets leaving 1200 - 1300 fps from 45 caliber black powder rifles were first used in the mid 1870's in what's now the Palma matches. Their target bullseye was a 3 foot square black on white paper scoring 5 points.

They didn't hit the ground until they bounced off the painted iron plate 800 to 1000 yards away.

 

[memilanuk]

in the 1988 Palma Team tryouts

in the mid 1870's in what's now the Palma matches.

Do you have any relevant first hand competitive experience *in this century*, or heaven forbid, this decade, that would actually be relevant to the discussion at hand?

 

[Nature Boy]

500 grain lead bullets leaving 1200 - 1300 fps from 45 caliber black powder rifles were first used in the mid 1870's in what's now the Palma matches. Their target bullseye was a 3 foot square black on white paper scoring 5 points.

They didn't hit the ground until they bounced off the painted iron plate 800 to 1000 yards away.
View attachment 1055460

Which one of those guys is you Bart?

 

[dcali]

Depends upon the goal. Shooting unknown distance, less drop will yield less error. Shooting known distance, it makes little difference. Note the two attached charts. Both are loads that I've shot from F-TR rifles. The 230 Hybrid total drop is ~25% more than the 155 Hybrid at 1000 yards, but the 230 Hybrid maximum ordinate is only 16 inches higher. My experience is that the vertical difference is of no consequence in 1k KD shooting. The lateral wind displacement difference is a big deal. Both have advantages and disadvantages.

I don't disagree. But even at known distance, there's a couple inches more vertical in, say, a 20 fps difference between the two - at a cost of a substantial reduction in wind deflection admittedly.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

Which one of those guys is you Bart?

hes the guy under that cape taking the picture- wearing that sierra hat.

 

[Bart B.]

Do you have any relevant first hand competitive experience ............

More than you may care to read about. Some of it on other continents.

I was responding to damoncali's remark: "Run the numbers on a 200 grain hybrid (or similar), fired at 1000 fps. The damn things will hit the ground before they hit 950 fps."

 

[DirtySteve]

I am chiming in late here but here are my 2 cents worth. The first 1000 yard match I shot I had never fired at any thing over 500 yrds before. I used 44.3 grains of Varget with a 175 SMK and ended with a respectable score. I later shot the Lapua 155 Scenar at 2950 fps using Varget. Both loads did fine the 175 did better in the wind. My next barrel will be throated for the 200.20X or 230 Berger. Low SD is what you need to be concerned about plus the wind. The trajectory is not an issue with a low SD in velocity. I for the life of me can not under stand why folks bash the 308. I guess they bash all vehicles except the Buggati as well.

 

[Evan]

I think it's got more to do with how much better other, widely available cartridges do at 1000. The 308 is just outgunned and unless something is compelling you to use it, you're better off with most any other cartridge. You can shoot a 45-70 at 1000 too, but it's not going to work nearly as well as anything shooting 6, 6.5, or 7mm bullets. If I hand you a 243 that's set up exactly like your 308, your scores will immediately improve because you just went from a 90s dodge caravan to a new Pacifica and the improvement to the handling and performance is notable across the board.

 

[Bart B.]

If I hand you a 243 that's set up exactly like your 308, your scores will immediately improve because you just went from a 90s dodge caravan to a new Pacifica and the improvement to the handling and performance is notable across the board.

With half the barrel life.

 

[Down South]

I am chiming in late here but here are my 2 cents worth. The first 1000 yard match I shot I had never fired at any thing over 500 yrds before. I used 44.3 grains of Varget with a 175 SMK and ended with a respectable score. I later shot the Lapua 155 Scenar at 2950 fps using Varget. Both loads did fine the 175 did better in the wind. My next barrel will be throated for the 200.20X or 230 Berger. Low SD is what you need to be concerned about plus the wind. The trajectory is not an issue with a low SD in velocity. I for the life of me can not under stand why folks bash the 308. I guess they bash all vehicles except the Buggati as well.

Of the two bullets you listed as your next barrel will be throated for (X bullet or 230 berger) go with X bullet. You will thank me for saving you a lot of time, money, and grief. Been there and done that along with many other FTR shooters.

 

[scubohuntr]

Palma bullets need to be loaded pretty hot (3,000 fps) to get to 1,000 consistently; but when they do they can shoot ridiculous little groups (okay, not by benchrest standards, but by .308 standards). There's a reason most Palma rifles wear 30 inch barrels. The 168 SMK is a weird bullet in that it is almost impossible to get it to 1,000 and stay supersonic. At 600, it's a great bullet. At 1k, you could just as well throw rocks. If you're going to shoot 1k with a .308, and not play by Palma rules, I'd say go with the highest BC you can find that works with your throat and twist. It will probably be 175 to 190. Sure, you'll do better at 1,000 yards with a 6mm or 6.5 flamethrower, but it's part of the challenge to do it with a .308. If you can keep your bullets well over Mach 1 at the target, you'll do just fine with a .308. Transonic effects are the killers.

 

[Steve Blair]

Of the two bullets you listed as your next barrel will be throated for (X bullet or 230 berger) go with X bullet. You will thank me for saving you a lot of time, money, and grief. Been there and done that along with many other FTR shooters.

Jade is telling it straight. After much effort, I made 230 Hybrids work well in a .300 WSM F-Open rifle. My F-TR experiments had the opposite result. The load was excellent but the recoil and torque are just a bridge too far in an 18# rifle.

 

[Bart B.]

Palma bullets need to be loaded pretty hot (3,000 fps) to get to 1,000 consistently; but when they do they can shoot ridiculous little groups (okay, not by benchrest standards, but by .308 standards).

What are their standards? Where a few shots sometimes go, or something else?

The NBRSA 1000 yard six 10-shot group record aggregate average is 5.9612 inches, 6 in round numbers. The largest single group is over 7 inches. Such group sizes are not ridiculous little ones. To some, the rifle and ammo system was about a 3/4ths MOA one. And earlier agg's were all larger.

Not difficult to do with 308 Win stuff.

 

[dmoran]

The NBRSA 1000 yard six 10-shot group record aggregate average is 5.9612 inches, 6 in round numbers. The largest single group is over 7 inches. Such group sizes are not ridiculous little ones. To some, the rifle and ammo system was about a 3/4ths MOA one. And earlier agg's were all larger.

Not difficult to do with 308 Win stuff.

While there are other 1000-BR sanctioning's with group aggregate records considerably smaller, you yourself never broke or even come close to setting a NBRSA-1000 record, even back when the group aggs were much larger, which proves it was to difficult for you.

Your lack of knowledge to Benchrest is laughable. And your jealousy of it is obvious.

 

[Kracken McGraw]

View attachment 1055444

I hope that was a freebie!

 

[Down South]

What are their standards? Where a few shots sometimes go, or something else?

The NBRSA 1000 yard six 10-shot group record aggregate average is 5.9612 inches, 6 in round numbers. The largest single group is over 7 inches. Such group sizes are not ridiculous little ones. To some, the rifle and ammo system was about a 3/4ths MOA one. And earlier agg's were all larger.

Not difficult to do with 308 Win stuff.

Back in 2015 when i shot the record FTR target @ 1000 yards I measured the size of the group. The first shot out the barrel was 9 ring left just above waterline, made the adjustment then fired 23 more shots, it was 6.5 inch tall and 6.75 inch wide for 23 shots (3 sighters and 20 for record). This is having to wait for a puller between shots and shooting off a bipod in prone position. The .308 isn't the most accurate/best caliber for long range shooting but it can shoot pretty well with the right load etc. That was 210 JLK bullets (trimmed & pointed) in 32 inch Bartlein barrel.

 

[dmoran]

Back in 2015 when i shot the record FTR target @ 1000 yards I measured the size of the group. It was 6.5 inch tall and 6.75 inch wide for 23 shots (3 sighters and 20 for record).

A very impressive and notable accomplishment !.!.!

Do you happen to have a picture of the target? (would be cool to see it)

Best Regards