30-30 Win Reloading tips?

[vegas]

Hey all,

I recently picked up my first rifle in 30-30 and will be reloading for it. Never loaded a rimmed cartridge before and I’m curious on best practice to do so. For my other centerfire rifles, I use RCBS Precision Mics when setting up my sizing die to set the shoulder back the appropriate amount but I see that’s not an option. What’s the best way to set up the sizing die for 30-30 and should I FL size? For reference I’ll be loading on a Lee Turret press, single stage style with the linkage removed. I plan on buying the Lee set of dies with the FCD included.

Cheers.

 

[Uncle Ed]

The 30-30 max chamber pressure is 38,000 cup or 43,000 psi and not great enough to make the case stretch to meet the bolt face. Meaning the primers will be protruding from your fired cases by the amount of head clearance you have. And your full length resized cases will die of split necks and not case head separations.

I have a Winchester 94 30-30 trapper model with a 16 1/2 barrel and my son has a Marlin 336 30-30 with a 20 inch barrel. My son wanted to shoot both rifles to see if there was a accuracy difference because my 30-30 has a Williams peep sight.

We went to the range and my son did all the shooting and I just inspected each fired case. My son had Remington and Federal factory ammunition in 150 and 170 grain bullets. And all four types of ammunition had the primers protruding with the cases headspacing on their primers.

Bottom line, I have cases I bought new in 1982 and reloaded each year for deer season and this year they died of split necks when full length resized. These cases were full length resized on a RCBS Rockchucker press with the die making hard contact with the shell holder with press cam over.

I have a Hornady cartridge case headspace gauge but never bothered checking shoulder location because of the low chamber pressure, the rimmed case and protruding primers. You are not shooting a belted magnum and worried about the case headspacing on it shoulder.

P. O. Ackley did a experiment and removed the locking bolt from a Winchester 94 30-30 and remotely fired the rifle. And nothing happened, the case gripped the chamber walls and all that happened was the primer backed out.

Below with the listed starting loads in the reloading manuals for any cartridge and low pressure cartridges like the 30-30 the primers will protrude on fired cases. And the cases do not stretch and thin in the base web area to meet the bolt face.

Below a rimmed .303 British Enfield rifle at a max pressure of 46,000 psi or 49,000 psi will stretch cases and cause case head separations. But my 30-30 at 38,000 cup or 43,000 psi does not stretch the cases.

 

[Ggmac]

Ackleys results were on an Ackley chamber ! Don't confuse the tests . It's a rimmed cartridge so try , like everyone else is doing , pushing the shoulder back a few thousand . Don't full length if you want correct headspace . If you have primer set back you'll need to chamber on its shoulder . Be careful as you don't want to have the case protrude by doing so .
You will need to partial full length and experiment or get custom dies .
The 30/30 Ackley is a great cartridge but you may have feed issues .
38,000 cups will cause great harm, magnums aren't needed for dangerous situations .

 

[JSH]

If it's a lever gun, don't make it harder than it is. To get a lever gun to bughole groups on a regular basis, good luck. They will shoot very acceptable groups.
The 30-30 has been making folks happy for a long time.
There are a few folks around that have proven the 30-30 can be as good as other cartridges in the accuracy department.

I suggest full length sizing. The first time you don't and it won't full lock up the action or extract the loaded round you will know why.

One other thing after having played with several dozen 30-30's. Fire a few and see what your chamber forms them too, I have seen a fair bit of variance. That also goes for how dies size. Seems to be no rhym or reason.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

Fl size only and i suggest using a wilson case gage to setup your die

 

[Uncle Ed]

Ackleys results were on an Ackley chamber ! Don't confuse the tests . It's a rimmed cartridge so try , like everyone else is doing , pushing the shoulder back a few thousand . Don't full length if you want correct headspace . If you have primer set back you'll need to chamber on its shoulder . Be careful as you don't want to have the case protrude by doing so .
You will need to partial full length and experiment or get custom dies .
The 30/30 Ackley is a great cartridge but you may have feed issues .
38,000 cups will cause great harm, magnums aren't needed for dangerous situations .

Ggmac

Anyone who makes workup loads starting at the suggested start load will have protruding primers. And the primers will protrude until the chamber pressure is great enough to push and stretch the case back into the bolt face.

Below is a photo posted in the British Target Shooter Magazine by Laurie Holland. And the cases were fired in a older Mauser rifle and have the primers protruding. The sentence below are Laurie Holland's own words.

(the loadings not being hot enough to fireform/stretch the brass fortunately).

And since the 30-30 chamber pressure is not great enough to make the case stretch. The only way to measure and check the shoulder location is with a fired case measuring from the base of the primer to its shoulder. And not measuring from base of the case with the primer removed.

And since the 30-30 headspaces on its rim and the cases do not stretch to meet the bolt face the shoulder location is not critical.

And the only way to make the 30-30 case stretch is to load over book maxmum. And I have tested this in my 30-30 and my handloads do not cause case stretching. Did any of you read the primer method I posted for getting actual chamber headspace?

And yes P.O. Ackley tested the "Improved" 30-30 with less body taper and the primers were protruding with his "warmer" loads. But this doesn't change the fact that with any type cartridge if the primers are protruding the chamber pressure was not great enough to make the case stretch to meet the bolt face.

And at Varmint Al's webpage he shows a .243 cartridge loaded to 35,000 psi and the only load on the bolt face is 800 psi by the protruding primer. So until the primers are flush with the base of the cases you do not have the total bolt thrust load on the bolt face.

Below is a .303 British case on the right fired in a old worn out 1917 Enfield rifle well over max headspace with reduced cast bullet loads. These cases were fired over 30 times before the case necks started to split and no sign of case head separations.

So in closing Ggmac are you taking over for Bart B. and the resident expert now.

 

[2506]

I agree with everything JSH said. In a leaver gun the 30-30 Win is a good minute of deer angle of fire under 200 yards (because of velocity drop off for proper bullet expansion) hunting tool. I killed my first deer with one. But put it into a bolt or single shot like the T/C Contender rifle or pistol and you get a whole different critter. My uncle had a Savage bolt rifle in 30-30 Win. and once you got used to the heavy trigger that thing would drive tacks. My first T/C Contender pistol was a scope sited 10" barrel 30-30 Win. From a rest it was incredibly accurate and with 125 Sierra bullets loaded up with IMR 4198 It was a real deer killer out to about 150 yards which is as far as I shot a deer with it. I will add that with a tube fed rifle use only round nose or flat point or the flex tip bullets. But you can use pointed bullets if you single load. I know of people that load the 125 Nosler Ballistic Tip (which is an awesome deer size game bullet) for leaver rifles. They use it by loading one round in the chamber then placing JUST ONE round in the magazine for a two shooter. They shoot well enough to only need one shot at game most of the time. They know their rifle and their as well as the rifles limitations. The old thuddy thuddy is a fun old tool. Have fun.

 

[Uncle Ed]

Did someone say pointed bullets for a 30-30 lever action with a tube magazine.
You can load a magazine full of these and not have a "two shooter".

Shooting Hornady’s LEVERevolution 140 grain Monoflex
http://ataleoftwothirties.com/?p=695

 

[fatelvis]

I load a 173gr cast boolit (Lyman #311410 GC) over either 4895 in all my 30-30s, including my Contender, with wonderful success. I keep my brass separate for my three guns, and only bump the shoulder back .002” on each. I get better accuracy with gas checked boolits than jacketed, in 30-30 and 303 Brit. I think this is due to sizing them to my actual bore + .001”, ( .310” and .312” respectively). Whichever bullet you choose, try seating the bullet partially, withdraw the case from the die, turn it about 90* in the shellholder, and finish seating the bullet. I’ve found this to cut runout on my ammo to a minimum. Have fun with that thing!!

 

[Uncle Ed]

I load a 173gr cast boolit (Lyman #311410 GC) over either 4895 in all my 30-30s, including my Contender, with wonderful success. I keep my brass separate for my three guns, and only bump the shoulder back .002” on each. I get better accuracy with gas checked boolits than jacketed, in 30-30 and 303 Brit. I think this is due to sizing them to my actual bore + .001”, ( .310” and .312” respectively). Whichever bullet you choose, try seating the bullet partially, withdraw the case from the die, turn it about 90* in the shellholder, and finish seating the bullet. I’ve found this to cut runout on my ammo to a minimum. Have fun with that thing!!

If your fired cases have the primers protruding how do you know you bumped the case shoulder back .002?

Are you measuring your fired cases from the base of the primer to the case shoulder? And even if you do measure the case this way it does not change your headspace or head clearance. And the only way to get the base of the case to contact the bolt face would be to lube the cases and this is a NO-NO.

Below a brand new .303 British case in a Wilson case gauge, the case would drop in further into the gauge but the case rim is preventing the case from dropping in further. Meaning the case shoulder is about a 1/4 short of the rifles chamber shoulder.

Below a fired case resting on it shoulder in the Wilson case gauge.

So again as long as the primers are protruding the cases are not stretching in the base web area.

The only way to make the 30-30 case stretch when it is fired is to load over book maximum of 43,000 psi. And then the fired primers will be flush with the base of the case like below.

Below rimmed .450 Martini-Henry cartridges use by the British in the Zulu war in South Africa. The case on the left is new manufacture and the case on the right is from 1879. The rimmed cartridge case comes a earlier time when case manufacture was not the same standard we use today. And if your 30-30 cases have .006 head clearance and you bump the 30-30 case shoulder back .002 you still have .006 head clearance.

 

[Ggmac]

Good with pictures BUT if the weapon had correct headspace NO MATTER the pressure involved , it would not have primers backing out ! Now with that said a RIMMED case can have correct headspace , as your pictures should indicate. BUT If your cases are matched to your chamber using your shoulder , you would not have primers backing out . If there was a correct die procedure or die the sized rim would be against the bolt face , thereby no place for the primer txt go .

 

[Uncle Ed]

Good with pictures BUT if the weapon had correct headspace NO MATTER the pressure involved , it would not have primers backing out ! Now with that said a RIMMED case can have correct headspace , as your pictures should indicate. BUT If your cases are matched to your chamber using your shoulder , you would not have primers backing out . If there was a correct die procedure or die the sized rim would be against the bolt face , thereby no place for the primer txt go .

"WRONG" Ggmac you do not understand, please look below. The SAAMI cartridge and chamber drawing shows the manufacturing tolerance for the 30-30 rim is from .063 to .053. in thickness. And minimum headspace is .063 and max is .070, so a case with a rim thickness of .058 can have the primer back out .005 to .011 depending on the rifles actual headspace.

And the factory ammunition fired in my Winchester 30-30 and my sons Marlin 30-30 had the primers protruding .006 to .007. And at the low 30-30 chamber pressure the primers will back out just like start loads in any cartridge.

And a .303 British at max military headspace and a rim thickness of .058 can have .016 head clearance and stretch the cases badly. And the difference in chamber pressure between the 30-30 and .303 British is 7,000 psi. Meaning the higher .303 British chamber pressure at 49,000 psi stretches the brass beyond its elastic limits. But at the max 30-30 chamber pressure the brass does not stretch.

So again, if your fired primers are protruding you will never get the base of the case to contact the bolt face and move the case shoulder further forward. You could try fire forming the cases with a false shoulder or jam the bullets. "BUT" if you bump the shoulder back .002 at the 30-30 chamber pressures the primer would back out .002.

 

[stacy]

NEVER HAD A ISSUE LOADING MY MODEL 94 WIN BUT I CAN SAY THIS IT LIKES BENCHMARK POWDER AND 160 GR FLEX-TIPS BEEN A FEW PUT ON THE DINNER TABLE WITH THE LEG BREAKER

 

[JSH]

I don't get bent out of shape over head space. I believe it is what you make of it.
A lot of milsurps along with a pile of of old lever guns, don't meet Sami specs.
I myself prefer to load for a specific gun, that ammo goes with. As I mentioned I have more than one 30-30, each and everyone has its quirks. Make the cartridge fit the chamber and fireform so it head spaces on the shoulder.

Have a look at forming brass for the TC's, like 30 and 357 Herrett. Look at the issues with the 35 Remington in a TC, and how to fix them easily.

 

[fatelvis]

So again, if your fired primers are protruding you will never get the base of the case to contact the bolt face and move the case shoulder further forward. You could try fire forming the cases with a false shoulder or jam the bullets. "BUT" if you bump the shoulder back .002 at the 30-30 chamber pressures the primer would back out .002.

I jam my cast boolits into the lands in my 30-30s (slight jam) and use a rubber O ring on the rim of the 303s when fire-forming. Doing this allows me to take fairly accurate measurements of the chambers, without worry of primers backing out, case head stretch, etc. also, when using medium power loads, I do indeed push the shoulder forward, and don’t have problems with primers backing out.

 

[Ggmac]

"WRONG" Ggmac you do not understand, please look below. The SAAMI cartridge and chamber drawing shows the manufacturing tolerance for the 30-30 rim is from .063 to .053. in thickness. And minimum headspace is .063 and max is .070, so a case with a rim thickness of .058 can have the primer back out .005 to .011 depending on the rifles actual headspace.

And the factory ammunition fired in my Winchester 30-30 and my sons Marlin 30-30 had the primers protruding .006 to .007. And at the low 30-30 chamber pressure the primers will back out just like start loads in any cartridge.

And a .303 British at max military headspace and a rim thickness of .058 can have .016 head clearance and stretch the cases badly. And the difference in chamber pressure between the 30-30 and .303 British is 7,000 psi. Meaning the higher .303 British chamber pressure at 49,000 psi stretches the brass beyond its elastic limits. But at the max 30-30 chamber pressure the brass does not stretch.

So again, if your fired primers are protruding you will never get the base of the case to contact the bolt face and move the case shoulder further forward. You could try fire forming the cases with a false shoulder or jam the bullets. "BUT" if you bump the shoulder back .002 at the 30-30 chamber pressures the primer would back out .002.

You still don't get it ! I can take new brass , load it properly and NEVER have a protruding PRIMER ! you can post pretty pictures , keep reading or experimenting till then you'll be spreading BS.
I'm done your too smart for me .

 

[Ggmac]

I jam my cast boolits into the lands in my 30-30s (slight jam) and use a rubber O ring on the rim of the 303s when fire-forming. Doing this allows me to take fairly accurate measurements of the chambers, without worry of primers backing out, case head stretch, etc. also, when using medium power loans, I do indeed push the shoulder forward, and don’t have problems with primers backing out.

Yes !

 

[Uncle Ed]

You still don't get it ! I can take new brass , load it properly and NEVER have a protruding PRIMER ! you can post pretty pictures , keep reading or experimenting till then you'll be spreading BS.
I'm done your too smart for me .

I can tell from your postings you never made a workup load starting at the suggested start load and looked at your backed out primers. I also doubt you have ever loaded 30-30 cases or examined the backed out primers.

I fire form my .303 British cases like below using a thin rubber o-ring to hold the case against the bolt face.

But here is the part you just do not understand, you can't take a new 30-30 case and eliminate the head clearance without special fire forming steps. And when fired normally the firing pin pushes the case forward and the low chamber pressure does not push the case against the bolt face, and you have protruding primers. And I have reloaded my 30-30 cases without jamming the bullets. o-rings or false shoulders for over 38 years and never had a problem or any case head separations.

And anyone here who has ever made a workup load starting at the suggested start load and looked at their primers knows you do not know what you are talking about. And don't tell me you jam your hunting jacketed 30-30 bullets in a Winchester 94.

 

[Ggmac]

I can tell from your postings you never made a workup load starting at the suggested start load and looked at your backed out primers. I also doubt you have ever loaded 30-30 cases or examined the backed out primers.

I fire form my .303 British cases like below using a thin rubber o-ring to hold the case against the bolt face.

But here is the part you just do not understand, you can't take a new 30-30 case and eliminate the head clearance without special fire forming steps. And when fired normally the firing pin pushes the case forward and the low chamber pressure does not push the case against the bolt face, and you have protruding primers. And I have reloaded my 30-30 cases without jamming the bullets. o-rings or false shoulders for over 38 years and never had a problem or any case head separations.

And anyone here who has ever made a workup load starting at the suggested start load and looked at their primers knows you do not know what you are talking about. And don't tell me you jam your hunting jacketed 30-30 bullets in a Winchester 94.

You are sO wrong , dang it . If there is no excess headspace there is NO space for the primer to move .
I've reloaded more rimmed cases than I care to remember . You are so wrong BUT there is a cure .
THe IGNORE button .
Only used it twice before , all with know it all giving out WRONG ! DANGEROUS INFORMATION

 

[Ggmac]

What some don't understand , Orings , jammed bullets Or FALSE shoulders all work