30-30 Win Reloading tips?

[Ggmac]

Another newbie with data he's read and passed incorrectly on . He obviously reloads for 2 cartridges . Heck I've chambered more rimmed cartridge barrels and worked up loads from scratch than I really want to remember . One 25-20 ss hand formed case is worth hours or labor , you don't want to mess those up .
Sorry to the OP . If you reload and need cartridge requirements not commercially available , such as round ball reduced loads for turkey or light cast bullet loads for practice . You can gain a lot of case life by creating a false shoulder , or jamming the bullet or o-rings on your first fireform load . Then from that point on with your rifle specific cases , resize just enough to easily chamber . You'll have to determine that point by trial and error .
A lot of good info in older (1970s) reloading manuals both Speer and Lyman . If hunting I would double check feeding with min sized ammo .
Sorry for the sidetrack rant , but safety and understanding headspace is important .

 

[Uncle Ed]

You are sO wrong , dang it . If there is no excess headspace there is NO space for the primer to move .
I've reloaded more rimmed cases than I care to remember . You are so wrong BUT there is a cure .
THe IGNORE button .
Only used it twice before , all with know it all giving out WRONG ! DANGEROUS INFORMATION

Below is from the Sierra manual and the last sentence shows how wrong you are.

On a rimmed cartridge if you measure the amount of primer protrusion and add it to your rim thickness that will be the rifles actual headspace.

So I wonder how many 30-30 owners fire form their cases by any method on a low pressure cartridge that has backed out primers.

 

[Uncle Ed]

Forster 30-30 GO gauge .063
Forster 30-30 NO-GO gauge .067
Forster 30-30 Field Gauge .070

I checked three brands of 30-30 brass and the average rim thickness was .058, it varied from .056 to .060. And my resized case are between the two steps on a Hornady drop in case gauge.

With a 30-30 at minimum headspace of .063 and a rim thickness of .058 you have .005 head clearance.
With a 30-30 at the NO-GO gauge of .067 and a rim thickness of .058 you have .009 head clearance.
With a 30-30 at the field gauge of .070 and a rim thickness of .058 you have .012 head clearance.
Meaning a 30-30 rifle from the GO gauge to .001 under the Field gauge can have the primer protruding .005 to .011.

Below Google search "backed out primers on a 30-30".
https://www.google.com/search?q=bac...LfAhUCmVkKHXTCAy84KBDy0wMIbg&biw=1366&bih=610

Checking Winchester Model 94 Headspace the Quick Way (using the primer method to check head clearance)
http://www.castbullet.com/misc/hspace.htm

 

[dellet]

Vegas,

When you have a rimmed cartridge with a shoulder, you have a choice. You can headspace off the rim or the shoulder. What you do, or what is “best” will depend primarily on the type of action you are using. You did say it was a rifle so will assume it’s not a revolver.

Contrary to some of what’s been said, because there is almost always exceptions to every rule of handloading and shooting, your shoulder will move forward with every shot. It will just take longer with low pressure loads. Generally speaking, the diameter will need to stop increasing, before the length of body will start. It just takes more shots, or hotter loads, which might be problematic depending on the strength of the action.

This brings up another misconception offered. A primer can and will back out and stay out, with a high or excessive pressure load. All that needs to happen is for the body of the case to expand tight enough to hold against the chamber walls. As evidenced by the famous Ackley test mentioned earlier. A protruding primer can absolutely be an indication of too much pressure or headspace.

In a nutshell, treat it like any other cartridge. Load for the action style. Minimal resizing is a common theme with any action, the idea is always the same, the tolerance changes.

Treat a pump or lever gun more like a semi-auto. You need more clearance to have reliable feeding.

A bolt action can probably be treated like any other, head spacing off the shoulder is possible. The magazine box might allow neck sizing or very minimal body sizing. You won’t know until you try.

For a single shot, index the brass so you can load it in the chamber the same way every time, neck size only if you can and keep shooting until the case comes apart or it needs the body sized to close the chamber. You can do this with a straight walled rimmed case just as well.

There’s a lot to be said for full length sizing every time. It keeps the neck centered over the base. It’s a choice.

Knowing what you’re shooting would help folks give you more relavent ideas.

I load rimmed cases based on what type of action it will be shot in, generally ignoring the rim. If it has a shoulder, I use it. If it’s straight wall, I can’t change anything anyways with the case to minimize headspace.

 

[Uncle Ed]

Below is a Gun Digest article on testing the 30-30 Ackley Improved with Pressure trace at various headspace settings.

Experimenting with Bolt Thrust
https://gundigest.com/gear-ammo/ammunition/experimenting-with-bolt-thrust

Below the amount of primer protrusion is the headspace settings for the testing. The case on the far left is at zero headspace with the larger headspace progressing to the right.

Below is from the article and shows the 30-30 case did not stretch and thin when fired.

"We first fired a batch with .010-inch headspace. The cartridges were pushed forward so that the rim was in contact with the breech of the barrel. When fired, the primer backed out .010-inch to take up the headspace, the case stayed fully forward and did not measurably stretch."

"We then experimented and found that the maximum amount of excessive headspace we could generate without the primer failing was .046 inches. When we exceeded this amount the primer ruptured and left us with lots of pieces and carbon in the breech gap."

"Because the brass is so thick, it actually cannot stretch and cause head separations due to excess headspace"

"The brass from our hottest loads shown here, were intentionally shot with excessive headspace. Expansion of the brass to full chamber diameter is normal and can be seen on the fired case. The expansion line on the bottom case is where you would expect to see case stretch if it were present. Looking across at the sectioned case, there is no sign of stretching of the case wall, i.e. no thinning of the case wall."

Bottom line, the firing pin hits the primer and drives the case rim into the breach face and the case at 42,000 psi is not forced back into contact with the bolt face. And the primer will always protrude depending on rim thickness and the rifles headspace setting. And primer protrusion with a rim thickness of .058 can be .005 to .011 and still be within SAAMI headspace limits.

I do not care how or what method you use to resize your 30-30 cases. I have been full length resizing my 30-30 cases for over 38 years and never had a single problem. And this is with the die making hard contact with the shell holder. But higher pressure cartridges that can stretch to meet the bolt face should be sized with minimum shoulder bump.

The best part about reloading is the person pulling the press handle decides how to do it.

 

[vegas]

Whew, lots of info and interesting debate to digest gents! Thanks to all for the input so far. The rifle in question is a Marlin 336. Not sure how that affects things but as I’m just getting started, is there a consensus on the best brass for the application? Intended use is 100 yards and in plinking fun.

Cheers.

 

[Exocet]

I'll try to keep it simple. Works for me.

Full size just enough to easily chamber.

Check and trim uniformly frequently. Most 30-30 bullets have a canelure and varying case lengths cause seating and crimping problems.

Don't crimp excessively. A slight crimp into the canelure is enough. Easy to crush a 30-30 case.

Don't try for maximum loads, find a moderate load that is accurate.

YMMV.

 

[dellet]

Whew, lots of info and interesting debate to digest gents! Thanks to all for the input so far. The rifle in question is a Marlin 336. Not sure how that affects things but as I’m just getting started, is there a consensus on the best brass for the application? Intended use is 100 yards and in plinking fun.

Cheers.

The action type matters mostly for feeding issues or load information.

I would load different for an original Marlin or Winchester that's 125 years old, than a new Ruger #1 where the brass would be the week link and give out long before the action would due to pressure.

Lever actions tend to have more of an angle to feed the cartridge from magazine to chamber, so more resizing may be needed than most bolt actions and certainly more than a single shot.

The less you move the brass back forth the longer it lasts. I have brass for single shots that are probably more than 100 years old and possibly shot more than 1000 times.

Generally speaking, the closer the case fits the chamber, the more accurate it will be. That needs to be balanced with how straight you will be pushing it in the chamber and how fast.

That's why what you shoot and how, will sometimes bring different suggestions to how you load.

Not much on the technical side, but some things to think about that might influence the choices you make.

 

[vegas]

Thanks dellet, good stuff. The Marlin in question is newer production, in the last 5 years is my guess.

 

[dellet]

I think Exocet probably gave you the best direction to go. Load it, shoot it, enjoy it. Then if you want to get a bit more accuracy or performance play a bit. Anything that would help accuracy of a bottle neck cartridge will basically apply to one with a rim.

It will probably never be a 1/2 MOA bench rifle, but no reason it can't be a 1 1/2 MOA barrel of fun.

Two other thoughts, since it's a later Marlin.

If it's old enough to be a true Marlin, before Remington/freedom group got o hold of them, it's a keeper. Probably worth more than a new one to a Marlin guy.

It might/probably is a Micro Groove barrel. I have never owned one, but have heard people kind of either love or hate them. If you have one and have problems, find someone who likes them and can make them shoot before giving up.

 

[vegas]

I’m not too worried about crazy accuracy, 2 - 3 MOA is perfectly acceptable for what I’ll be doing. Found out today that the rifle is about 4 years old. I only paid $350 for it so not too worried if it’s from the “wrong” era. If it’s something I end up enjoying as much as I think I will, I can trade/sell it off to get something a little nicer.

 

[vegas]

Don't crimp excessively. A slight crimp into the canelure is enough. Easy to crush a 30-30 case.

YMMV.

What would be considered excessive crimping? The bullets I have are a plated Berry’s 150gr FP with no cannelure. Prior to crimp I measure the neck at .329. Post crimp I’m at .327. How much is too far?

Thanks.