243win vs. 6creedmoor

[NortexDM]

Looking at that circa 2006 report from the cartridge guide made me smile Rob. I don't shoot PRS (or rather any of the the UK equivalents) being a traditional gravel belly type (F-Class in my case), but if I did, I've not the slightest doubt that up against George Gardiner, Terry Cross, and David Tubb, a snowflake in hell would have a better chance than me! ..... and which of the 10 or whatever cartridges they or I chose wouldn't make the least difference to my chances. ( .......... unless they all opted for .22LR of course! )

David isn't really a prs shooter but does pretty darn well when he does.

Ironically the old post talks about George and the 243 when it was his shop that really launched the 6mm creed imo.

 

[shooter65]

Not saying you did it personally but just saying from personal experience using it and a .243. Also if you look at those other loads they look like light for caliber bullets especially the .308 with that cannulured bullet. Seems like the author has a axe to grind as well with the 6 creed.

Here is a picture(L to R) of the factory 178 Superformance .308, factory 140 ELD-M 6.5 Creedmoor, factory 108 ELD-M 6mm Creedmoor and my handloaded .243 with 105 BTHP at .020" off lands. No axe here. I like all of them and shoot all of them.

I agree the author seems to be negative towards the 6CM.

Nice family photo!

 

[urbanrifleman]

What drives these long mag length requirements the misconception that you need to load the base of the bullet beyond the neck junction to avoid the donut.

I don't have a donut in my 243. Or my 308. Or my 223. I never even knew it existed before I got a 6br!!! Because I use normal Sammi neck diameters and that part of the neck expands normally after a few firings and there is no donut that contacts the bullet. I like we did for a 100 years before tight necked chambers.

The donut never became something that anyone ever concerned themselves with until these tight necked chambers started showing up in recent years. I think they might cause more problems than they fix. I had lc 308 match brass with maybe twenty firings on them and there was no donut even seating long bullets.

If I were to push the bullet back into the case with a high bc bullet with the 243 I would still have plenty of case capacity.

 

[Laurie]

I've read this article and he makes some fair points. To the OPs original question as to what the 6mm Creedmoor does that the 243 doesn't I'd say handle super long high BC bullets at mag length better and given manufacturers a viable 6mm platform for fast twist rates and higher BC ammo. A 243 can do most of what the 6mm Creedmoor can do, but it will likely be a custom rifle and handloaded ammo. For a lot of the forum members here, custom rifles and handloaded ammo is their preference in any caliber, but for the new to average shooter who wants a factory rifle and who either doesn't handload or who must have factory ammo options the 6mm Creedmoor today is the better platform. I've said it before, perception becomes rraluty. 243 is a medium game to hunting cartridge for most Shooters, 6mm Creedmoor is a long range target round based on the factory rifles and ammo offered. There isn't that much actual difference in the CAPABILITIES of the two cartridges. I contacted Sierra Bullets last fall asking which cartridge was better if I were building a rifle specifically to shoot the 110 SMK. Their response was that the Creedmoor had a slight advantage if mag length were an issue, but otherwise the two are so similar just pick one and go with it.

My views exactly. As I said in an earlier post, nearly everything in 243 from the factories is fine for most deerhunters but not at all optimal for target and especially PRS type target shooters' use. The slow twist, short neck etc. And as I said, without factory products for Joe Public to read about, handle in his or her local gunshop and buy over the counter, large scale use simply won't happen. Hornady, Ruger and Savage saw and filled a gaping empty niche in the market ('market segment' is the technical term marketeers use) and the went for it and won big time. And ... good for them - one of the best things to happen to the shooting sports and 'guntrade' as we call it in the UK in years. The pendulum of sentiment swings one way then back as always, and it's now fashionable to knock the Creedmoor, and although I don't use it myself now, don't particularly like 'Blacktikool rifles', and have just put another 260 Rem barrel onto one of my favourite rifles, I'd never knock what these companies and individuals have done.

What I do think - repeating myself - is that Winchester and Remington have ignored the possibilities for their existing products here and let others in. With the 20/20 vision of hindsight, I'd now say that Winchester's efforts in developing the .243WSSM (again a fashionable concept but which gives no more performance than straight 243 Win if it's not run at its over the top 65,000 psi pressures) were such a waste of talent, effort, and resources. A 'Super-243' akin to Whitley's 6mm SLR could have been a winner when allied to a rifle manufacturer offering a heavy barrel, fast-twist option.

 

[expiper]

I agree that the market is ripe for new products,,,,I feel that the major gun companies need to put faster twist in their bbls to acomodate the new wave of heavy for cal bullets that are in use today,,,,the .243 should have 8" twist and .223 also (9 at the least),,,,,Roger

 

[Milo 2.0]

I think COAL comes into play as well as trimming. 6x47 would be less of both and same performance

You're only kidding yourself on this one. The XC outdoes the 6x47, the creed stomps it in performance.

 

[Milo 2.0]

I agree that the market is ripe for new products,,,,I feel that the major gun companies need to put faster twist in their bbls to acomodate the new wave of heavy for cal bullets that are in use today,,,,the .243 should have 8" twist and .223 also (9 at the least),,,,,Roger

I'm not sure what gun companies are doing here, but barrel makers have stepped up big time, one only needs to view Bugholes inventory to substantiate this.

 

[Rob01]

David isn't really a prs shooter but does pretty darn well when he does.

Ironically the old post talks about George and the 243 when it was his shop that really launched the 6mm creed imo.

Yup it was George around 2011-2012 that started the lean towards the 6mm Creed when he started chambering and getting brass from Hornady. Used to be he was the only one you could get it from.

 

[Milo 2.0]

A post like this, or a post asking "what should I build" just eludes me.
1. I really don't care what you shoot, and will not get any extra credit if you shoot the same as me.
2. I would never shoot a 243, but am shooting a 6 creed. I have shot variants based off the 243, 6SLR, 6 comp match, and liked them.
3. Yes the 243 is load and go, but I'll take the plug and play of the XC or 6 creed all day. I like 30deg shoulders.

 

[Rob01]

I feel the same. I don't care what people shoot and shoot what I shoot for my own reasons. You can shoot any of the 6mm or 6.5 variants and do well in PRS if you can run the rifle. A lot more to doing well in matches than the caliber of your rifle. Pick one, learn it and go shoot.

 

[K22]

I saw it over the 30 years I shot competitive bulls eye pistol; guys trying to buy their way to winning matches. They would go from one gun to the next searching for that ONE which would deliver a winning score. Then there was this old guy on our pistol team with an old Hi Standard and revamped 45 Colt Gold Cup who beat everyone in our club; most of the time.

His advice, learn how to shoot first. Learn the fundamentals, practice calling your shots and learn from each shot, make every shot count i.e. read the Army Pistol Marksmanship manual.

Granted you need a firearm / load combo that is first capable of winning but beyond that learn how to shoot. I see it in hunting also, guys trying to make up poor marksmanship with magnums. Whatever happen to learning how to shoot?

 

[shooter65]

A post like this, or a post asking "what should I build" just eludes me.
1. I really don't care what you shoot, and will not get any extra credit if you shoot the same as me.
2. I would never shoot a 243, but am shooting a 6 creed. I have shot variants based off the 243, 6SLR, 6 comp match, and liked them.
3. Yes the 243 is load and go, but I'll take the plug and play of the XC or 6 creed all day. I like 30deg shoulders.

"I like 30deg shoulders."

Agree 100%. Plus they look good!

 

[Dgd6mm]

I don't give a hoot about shoulder angle and do not care what others shoot. All I want is to shoot the caliber I'm shooting well. I compete some,but down deep I'm more of a recreational shooter. I've thought about the 6 Creedmoor, but my .243 and Comp Match keep me busy, then there is FTR shooting.

 

[Delfuego]

You're only kidding yourself on this one. The XC outdoes the 6x47, the creed stomps it in performance.

I wouldn't say stomps. The 6 Creed can run them faster on average, but I think the 6x47 can hang in there. I know one person, a member here from AZ, that loves 6x47 and runs them at 3100+. It a heavy load, but he seems to like it. They all do a good job and think they it really personal preference. I want extra barrel and life more than extra fps, so I wont be chasing the dragon, but that is just my preference.

 

[Milo 2.0]

I wouldn't say stomps. The 6 Creed can run them faster on average, but I think the 6x47 can hang in there. I know one person, a member here from AZ, that loves 6x47 and runs them at 3100+. It a heavy load, but he seems to like it. They all do a good job and think they it really personal preference. I want extra barrel and life more than extra fps, so I wont be chasing the dragon, but that is just my preference.

All these cases have a place in shooting, I shot a 6x47 at 3100 with a 105 hybrid too, moly'd though. Most of us do not have the means to determine actual pressures generated, and just because brass isn't coughing up pressure signs, it does not mean we have not exceeded it some. Guys here shooting 110's at 3150 from a creed, I don't condone it, just it's being done.
But yes I agree with what you said mostly.

 

[Hondo64d]

somebody here tell me what does the 6cm do that the 243win doesnt? Why is the CM a more popular choice like for PRS and the tactical type games? Is it that the CM outperformes the old workhorse or is it the cool factor only or what am i missing?

It allows the shooter to reach the lands with VLD type bullets at magazine length and launch the them at .243 velocities.

John

 

[Dusty Stevens]

It allows the shooter to reach the lands with VLD type bullets at magazine length and launch the them at .243 velocities.

John

Wouldnt the correct freebore do that in a 243? I have a reamer that does it with 105 and dtacs?

 

[Hondo64d]

Wouldnt the correct freebore do that in a 243? I have a reamer that does it with 105 and dtacs?

Absolutely, but requires a reamer with a freebore shorter than SAAMI specs. Then there’s the donut and factory ammo selection...

John

 

[LHSmith]

[QUOTE="urbanrifleman, post: 37203254, member: 1299188".

The donut never became something that anyone ever concerned themselves with until these tight necked chambers started showing up in recent years. I think they might cause more problems than they fix.

If I were to push the bullet back into the case with a high bc bullet with the 243 I would still have plenty of case capacity.[/QUOTE]



"Tight neck" chambers fix accuracy problems. This is inarguable as evidenced by thousands of SR Benchrest competitions held for the last few decades. They allow consistent neck tension around the full circumference of the bullet.......and neck tension is a huge part of the equation in tuning.
In most cases in SR BR the best accuracy node is found at the upper end of pressure levels with case capacity the limiting factor which is why many top shooters spec reamers to gain the maximum case capacity possible from the parent case. So a few more grains of powder is a huge benefit.
I don't shoot LR BR, but know a few LR competitors and have observed them pre-load for matches but am pretty confident that turning for precision neck thickness and designing reamers for the absolute max in case capacity also applies in their discipline. I actually never heard this phrase at a match - " my cases have plenty of capacity".
Note- the above does not apply to those with factory chambers who shoot just for fun- as in most cases you will never realize any benefit from neck turning.

 

[XTR]

... in most cases you will never realize any benefit from neck turning.

@LHSmith , I have a question that I've never seen answered, maybe you have an answer. How great is the increase in precision between turned and unturned, assuming that your reamer is spec'd to shoot unturned brass with out issue? or is a tight necked chamber a necessity to realize the benefits? (and again, pls quantify)