22ARC
- Thread starter Bat Rastard
- Start date
CJ6
Silver $$ Contributor
And therein is my issue with it. I have a few ARs but much prefer bolts. I have a PPC and a spare PTG PPC bolt for my XP. Hornady needs to get with the gunmakers to get more bolt actions made. Just my .02 cents.
Interesting. How much velocity difference are you seeing between the Grinch vs Grendel..or do you like it better for some other reason. Not much physical difference in them is why I ask. TIA
I see the Grendel/Grinch (whether it's the 22 cal version or 6mm), as similar to the 6mmBR Norma/6 Dasher comparison. I compared the reamer prints to each other a few weeks ago, and that comparison is still written down somewhere - I'm just not feeling well enough to dig it up and write it all down right now. Don't know what sort of bug I've contracted, but am headed back for the recliner.
Hope ya feel better soon.
Nowhere near as much improvement to case capacity as say a brx or dasher over a straight br. Again, that's why I was asking. Bart told me at the time, they gained essentially no velocity over a straight grendel by going to the grinch in one. I'm pretty sure that was with heavy bullets..fwiw. I've been shooting a straight 6 Grendel for a few years and I love it but never tried the Grinch if there's little gain and requires custom dies and fire forming.
The main reason I wanted to try the Grinch was reading about some point-blank BR guys building 6 Grinch rifles that out-shot 6 PPC in BR matches. Obviously, I'm not going to be shooting serious BR matches with a Howa Mini action, nor probably with an Origin custom action. But I'm also a long-time Dasher fan (had my 1st one built in 2004, just before I bought a lathe and started doing my own bbl work). My Grinch reamer has a .254" neck, which requires a skim neck turn. Once I get more brass prepped and have time to do more shooting with it, I should have more data on velocity & accuracy.
My apologies but I Interpreted one of your previous posts to imply that a straight 6 Grendel was a mistake and that you finally got it right when you made it into a 6 Grinch. Again, if I misunderstood, I'll take the blame for that.
The experience I've had with a straight 6 Grendel over several years is that it is very much like a 6 ppc on steroids but with no fireforming. And after talking with Bart, he said he and Billy had one of each but they saw no significant velocity increase from one to the other. So yes, if that's the case, I'll stay with the straight Grendel version.,..no custom dies and no fireforming. But the reason I asked is in case you had a different experience, that I assumed from your post.
Either way, Lapua Grendel brass is phenomenal and every bit as good as their 220 brass, in every respect. It makes a lot of sense to wildcat ppc variants with, be it improved or further improved. The only downside I can find with it is the neck is a bit shorter, but the ppc neck is proportionately longer than most cartridges too. So, we're splitting a pretty fine hair here, in that regard.
I've built a few 6 Fat Rats(aka 6 Big Mouse) rifles too, where the shoulder of the Grendel is blown out more than on a Grinch. So, I was just hoping you could provide info that was contrary to what I've seen. I do a lot of stuff with that Lapua Grendel case, and I'm doing a 22 variant now...but having thoroughly tested it necked up and down, from 6mm to 30 cal and it's a solid winner in both configurations.
In this game we tend to overthink a lot and we tend to go with what is known. This Grendel cartridge is very good and is well within "known" territory. But who knows...there may be a better version. The straight Grendel case retains the .30° shoulder as a ppc, as well as the bolt face diameter. The big difference, if you want to call it that, is it's .070 longer to the datum vs a ppc...so they're really close and that puts the capacity pretty much right between a ppc and br case...both using small primers and small flash holes with Lapua brass.
I'm far from saying you are wrong and I'm always looking for a reason to do things a little different than what everyone else does things, so I'm very open to the Grinch but I'm still in search of a reason to get away from the straight Grendel version, with standard dies and no fireforming. Let me know if I'm missing something and thanks a bunch. This is a cartridge that I've got a lot of experience with because it just plain makes a lot of sense to me....not that it's the end all, be all. But yes...it's freakin excellent and has just a little more balls than a ppc. Otherwise, not much difference at all. It very much is, a PPC Improved. I've gone to a straight 6 Grendel in all of my 6mm BR rifles now..(well, almost) and I'm not at all disappointed with the decision. I hope to re barrel a 6BR to straight 6 Grendel this winter for my UBR Modified gun. It's just an xp100 that meets ubr modified rules and I really only shoot it a couple of matches per year. A Nat championship in the grand as well as a 200 agg in 3 years from 2019-2021,)(ubr custom and unlimited) iirc, ain't a bad record for ANY cartridge when most everyone one else is shooting tried and true cartridges, like a ppc or br. I'm not changing unless I can find reason, is the bottom line. I actually consider the Grendel a step better than either of the other two but the difference is not in accuracy as much as no fireforming but still with EQUAL accuracy. YMMV, but I'm probably gonna keep shooting a 6mm Grendel of some fashion until I see something better. I've been ding this a while now. Of course I've had many ppc's and br's...in different calibers. I'm really only interested in why you believe a Grinch is better than a Grendel. TIA--Mike
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I appreciate you taking the time to explain your point of view where the Grendel is concerned, and I must say that I agree with you. A good friend of mine tried to buy just a 6 AR Turbo 40* bbl from Robert Whitely several years ago, but the only way Mr. Whitely would sell his was as a complete upper. So my friend made some minor changes to the reamer print and called it the 6 RAT, then arranged to have a run of dies made by Hornady. He sent the info to John Holliger at White Oak Precision so he could provide barrels or complete uppers, and we each built 28" bbl'd spaceguns for use as match rifles in XTC high power. At the time, we could buy Grendel brass from Alexander Arms (made by Lapua but with ALEX-A headstamp). I just went down to the reloading room and found three invoices for 500 pcs ea, from July 2010 to to Dec. 2011 - they charged me .72/case in 2010, but dropped the price down to .55/case, or $275/500 on the Dec, 2011 invoice. Boy, would I love to be able to buy that same brass at that price today! It was easy to prep for fireforming, just neck down from 6.5 to 6 and leave a false shoulder. I got into an Eliseo bolt rifle chassis before all the parts for my 6 RAT spacegun arrived, so only shot a very few matches with the RAT, and sold it to a friend in another gun club. Later on, I built myself another AR RAT, this time with a 24" Krieger, and set up as more of a tactical/practical rifle, which I still have.
The RAT always seemed like a miniature Dasher to me, and I wanted to build myself a a bolt rifle RAT. The CZ 527 was available in a carbine version chambered for the 7.62x39, so I ordered one in, pulled the factory bbl, and replaced it with a Krieger 6mm/1-8tw #4 sporter that I chambered with the same 6 RAT reamer I'd used on several AR bbls. A few years later, when Legacy Sports started selling the Howa Mini bbl'd actions in 6.5 Grendel, I bought one and built myself another 6 RAT on it. I've always wondered if these two bolt rifles would shoot a bit better if I'd spec'd a reamer with tighter dimensions more suitable for a bolt rifle than the AR-spec'd RAT reamer I have, but honestly, they both shot pretty good, so I left well enough alone.
When I comes to the 22 Grendel & Grinch, the only rounds I've chronographed were first time fired Grendel & fireform Grinch loads, and the only identical loads that were fired through the Bartlein gain twist on the Howa Mini were with Alliant PP2000MR, F205 primers, and Berger 85.5gr Hybrids. The Grendel rounds went 2950fps, and the Grinch printed 2964fps. I've yet to chrono any rounds through fireformed Grinch cases, so based on what I've seen to date, there's no real reason to expect that formed Grinch loads will out-pace the 22 Grendel. It's likely going to be a few weeks before I have the opportunity to follow up on this, as I've got quite a bit of fall field work to get done before I'll have time to do much shooting.
The RAT always seemed like a miniature Dasher to me, and I wanted to build myself a a bolt rifle RAT. The CZ 527 was available in a carbine version chambered for the 7.62x39, so I ordered one in, pulled the factory bbl, and replaced it with a Krieger 6mm/1-8tw #4 sporter that I chambered with the same 6 RAT reamer I'd used on several AR bbls. A few years later, when Legacy Sports started selling the Howa Mini bbl'd actions in 6.5 Grendel, I bought one and built myself another 6 RAT on it. I've always wondered if these two bolt rifles would shoot a bit better if I'd spec'd a reamer with tighter dimensions more suitable for a bolt rifle than the AR-spec'd RAT reamer I have, but honestly, they both shot pretty good, so I left well enough alone.
When I comes to the 22 Grendel & Grinch, the only rounds I've chronographed were first time fired Grendel & fireform Grinch loads, and the only identical loads that were fired through the Bartlein gain twist on the Howa Mini were with Alliant PP2000MR, F205 primers, and Berger 85.5gr Hybrids. The Grendel rounds went 2950fps, and the Grinch printed 2964fps. I've yet to chrono any rounds through fireformed Grinch cases, so based on what I've seen to date, there's no real reason to expect that formed Grinch loads will out-pace the 22 Grendel. It's likely going to be a few weeks before I have the opportunity to follow up on this, as I've got quite a bit of fall field work to get done before I'll have time to do much shooting.
I totally understand about the Whitley thing. Pretty sure a Big Mouse has a lot of similarities to a Fat Rat, too. Lol!
Like @padom I've had a 220 Thunderbolt bolt action for a few years now - and I've barely shot it. I love the gun and the cartridge, but I've been focusing on other things lately. When I get back to it, I'm guessing I have enough brass for a few barrels - but the 6 Hagar brass is all gone now.
When I need a new fast 22cal rifle I will probably go with the a 22ARC/22 Grendel or maybe step up case size to the 22GT. There will probably still be Grendel brass in the pipeline by then - but who knows.
When I need a new fast 22cal rifle I will probably go with the a 22ARC/22 Grendel or maybe step up case size to the 22GT. There will probably still be Grendel brass in the pipeline by then - but who knows.
It would seem from posts on this thread that quite a few of us started out looking for more performance in the AR15 platform by trying Grendel, 6.8SPC, or even 30 Rem-based cartridges, and then decided not to limit their use to gas guns, so went looking for suitable bolt rifle actions. At least, that's how I wound up with a couple of 6 RAT bolt rifles, and would probably have done a 220 Thunderbolt if I could've found a way to come up with a Howa Mini bolt with the correct 6.8 SPC bolt face. IIRC, Remington made a run of M700s (or was it M7s?) in 6.8 SPC years ago; if I'd have been thinking straight, I'd have bought a couple of those actions, or perhaps just ordered in a couple of PTG's custom one-piece bolts with the 6.8 SPC bolt face. I always though the 6 HAGAR would've been a neat varmint/light whitetail hunting rifle.
There's also a custom AR15 in the closet with a Krieger 1-8tw bbl chambered for the 22 PDK that's quite an accurate shooter with a bit more case capacity than a 223. That's the sort of thing I wind up wanting to build when I've got too much time on my hands, and/or actions & bbl blanks in stock that aren't moving fast enough to keep me from wanting to try one for myself. Lord knows that I don't 'need' any more such rifles - but when did that ever stop a wildcatter from trying something 'new' just because the temptation to try it presented itself? I never shot the PDK AR in a match, though it's certainly got the accuracy for match use. To this day, most of what I shot through it was while gathering chronograph data, and trying to figure out why it wouldn't shoot accurately to begin with. The accuracy problem turned out to be a defective upper receiver with an out-of-square bbl extension - once I realized that and trashed that upper, putting the bbl in a new upper solved the accuracy problem completely, and that rifle shoots at least as well as any of my old spacegun match rifles. But the whole idea of putting cartridges that fit in the AR15 platform but gave more performance than the 223 seems to have left me & several others who've posted replies in this thread to common desire to try these cartridges in bolt rifles.
The little Howa Mini was a god-send (or curse if your wife found out what you were doing with them...lol) in this application. While I would've loved to have been able to find several Sako Vixen & A model bare actions with 223 & PPC boltfaces, I wouldn't have wanted to pay the price of buying complete rifles in nice condition and then used them as the basis for any of my hair-brained experiments. The worst drawback to the Howa Mini is in my opinion the cheap poly triggerguard/mag well units that the factory insists on sticking with. I originally used DIP aluminum DBMs with mine, and later went with Jefferson Outdoors DBMs, after finding the hokie-pokie-kid's posts over on the 6.5 Grendel forums. There are currently Minis with custom barrels chambered for 20 Tactical, 223AI, 22 Grinch, 6 RAT, and 6.5 Grendel in my collection, and I've been thinking about doing another one in 20 Vartarg - which I most certainly have done by now, if not for the fact that Lapua dropped production of 221 FB brass several years ago. Call it a sickness, or whatever - I still enjoy carrying these rifles on evening walks in our pasture over on the creek.
There's also a custom AR15 in the closet with a Krieger 1-8tw bbl chambered for the 22 PDK that's quite an accurate shooter with a bit more case capacity than a 223. That's the sort of thing I wind up wanting to build when I've got too much time on my hands, and/or actions & bbl blanks in stock that aren't moving fast enough to keep me from wanting to try one for myself. Lord knows that I don't 'need' any more such rifles - but when did that ever stop a wildcatter from trying something 'new' just because the temptation to try it presented itself? I never shot the PDK AR in a match, though it's certainly got the accuracy for match use. To this day, most of what I shot through it was while gathering chronograph data, and trying to figure out why it wouldn't shoot accurately to begin with. The accuracy problem turned out to be a defective upper receiver with an out-of-square bbl extension - once I realized that and trashed that upper, putting the bbl in a new upper solved the accuracy problem completely, and that rifle shoots at least as well as any of my old spacegun match rifles. But the whole idea of putting cartridges that fit in the AR15 platform but gave more performance than the 223 seems to have left me & several others who've posted replies in this thread to common desire to try these cartridges in bolt rifles.
The little Howa Mini was a god-send (or curse if your wife found out what you were doing with them...lol) in this application. While I would've loved to have been able to find several Sako Vixen & A model bare actions with 223 & PPC boltfaces, I wouldn't have wanted to pay the price of buying complete rifles in nice condition and then used them as the basis for any of my hair-brained experiments. The worst drawback to the Howa Mini is in my opinion the cheap poly triggerguard/mag well units that the factory insists on sticking with. I originally used DIP aluminum DBMs with mine, and later went with Jefferson Outdoors DBMs, after finding the hokie-pokie-kid's posts over on the 6.5 Grendel forums. There are currently Minis with custom barrels chambered for 20 Tactical, 223AI, 22 Grinch, 6 RAT, and 6.5 Grendel in my collection, and I've been thinking about doing another one in 20 Vartarg - which I most certainly have done by now, if not for the fact that Lapua dropped production of 221 FB brass several years ago. Call it a sickness, or whatever - I still enjoy carrying these rifles on evening walks in our pasture over on the creek.
COLT45SA
Silver $$ Contributor
Very interesting cartridge the I first read about 2years ago. I have yet to see a rifle, ammo, or brass for sale in any LGS or gun show. So why discuss it~????I am surprised this isn't being discussed.
22 ARC - Hornady Manufacturing, Inc
The 22 ARC brings you the exceptional power and performance of the 22-250 cartridge, all elegantly packed into the compact and versatile AR-15 platform.www.hornady.com
Hey flatlander...leave your bigoted hate speech at the door, hahahaha. That's the kind of language I don't use around my son!!! Gotta' raise him up right!
Regarding these small cartridges and odd case head sizes...I really like using Bighorn/Zermatt or American Rifle Company actions where I can swap the bolt heads. Then I use them with AICS magazines (with spacers if needed) and it's working good for me. I think MDT is making 6mm ARC specific AICS magazines - little to no tuning hopefully on those.
Regards,
R
Hornady did the same thing with their 6.5 CM when saying it rivals the 260 Rem when it first arrived. I think they must mean in the action design it was built for. The 22 ARC with an 88 grain eld in a short action is their claim to it rivaling the 22-250. Not sure you could get an 88 grain eld seated in a 22-250 case to fit in a . 223 magazine. Definitely not in an AR platform. This is just my guess as to their claim regarding a comparison. We all know it's not even close if reloading both cartridges and shooting them in any particular platform, the 22-250 is the clear choice for top performance. Hornady designs cartridges for the non-reloader IMO.Although Hornady doesn't list velocities as yet that I could find for any of their 22 ARC loaded ammunution, there are some numbers for the 88 ELDM load in the "Product Section" partway down the page at Midway USA:
Hornady Match 22 Advanced Rifle Cartridge (22 ARC) Ammo 88 Grain
This ammunition is custom-grade from the factory, loaded to stringent specifications to guarantee proper ignition and provide consistent, match-winning,...www.midwayusa.com
2820 fps from a an 88 gr bullet out of a 24" test barrel seems just a tad short of "rivaling" 22-250 performance to me, but that could just be an advertising thing. In the long run, it's probably smart that Hornady is not trying to push the 88s in the 3000 fps range, as jacket failures could easily become a significant issue out of a 7-twist barrel. I didn't check to see whether Midway USA had ammo specs for any of the other bullet weights listed.
I mentioned that I'd built my 2nd 22 Grinch on a Zermatt Origin action and am using the MDT ARC magazines with good success; don't recall now whether it was in this thread or a previous one. Not my 1st rodeo with Bighorn/Zermatt actions either, as I have several PRS-type rifles built on these actions, dating back to before AJ Goddard turned production of his Bighorn actions over to Zermatt. The interchangeable bolt head was only one reason I chose to go with the Origin action, the others being that it's very reasonably priced, and that I've had very good results with my Bighorn action rifles. I've CeraKoted the bbl on the Origin since taking this photo. The cartridge line-up shows - left to right - 22 Grendel, 22 Grinch, 6 Grendel with false shoulder set up to fire-form, formed 6 RAT, and 6.5 Grendel.Hey flatlander...leave your bigoted hate speech at the door, hahahaha. That's the kind of language I don't use around my son!!! Gotta' raise him up right!
Regarding these small cartridges and odd case head sizes...I really like using Bighorn/Zermatt or American Rifle Company actions where I can swap the bolt heads. Then I use them with AICS magazines (with spacers if needed) and it's working good for me. I think MDT is making 6mm ARC specific AICS magazines - little to no tuning hopefully on those.
Regards,
R
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CJ6
Silver $$ Contributor
Agreed with the ARCs. Their ammo is made for the pressure limits of the AR platforms, so it falls short of it's potential in bolt guns.
There ARE so MANY, older ( 40 to 60 years, old ) Cartridges, that NEED, "Re-Designing" or replacing with, Longer Necks, LESS Body Taper and sharper shoulders to, achieve, better Accuracy , less Barrel burning and it, AIN'T,.. "Rocket Science". ( 7MM Rem Mag.,.. NOW being replaced with, the 7 PRC as, an Example )
AND,.. their Engineers / Marketing teams,.. KNOW, this !
THIS has been going on for a while as, Winchester was One of the First with, the Popular, .270 and .300 WSM Line !
( Except SHORT Necked, 7 WSM ). Remington Jumped on, the Band Wagon with, 7 RSAUM ( a "Better" Cart. IMO ).
P.O. Ackley was, the Pioneer and,.. ahead of, his time !
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