223 & neck tension?

[TommyD11730]

First let me say Im not fond of the term neck tension. However it does seem to attract attention to a post.

So anyways when I was shooting 223 regularly I seemed to focus more on neck concentrity. I used a Forster full size die, removed the expander ball and ran the brass through a 223 mandrel.
That was "good enough" for me.

Now Im considering using some bushing dies that have been gathering dust.

So my question, for guys who have played around, did you find 223 liked more or less "neck tension"

Rifle in question is a 26" Criterion 1-7T barrel. Mostly shoot Berger 80.5s

Thanks guys.

 

[dusterdave173]

Sort of the same as you--started off with regular dies then progressed to others like a honed Forster, Redding bushing dies etc
I was happy with about .002 thou but when I started shooting heavies at longer distances I got a lot more picky about my loading--I am getting better groups at long distance using a .223 mandrel vs a .221 1/2 or .222mandrel Bullet seating goes smooth
So around .001 by some math but who really knows what all is going on --.002 shoots very good too
After I started annealing all things sizing, seating etc felt better and seemed more consistent .

Do like I did --load a batch of the same load--with different size final mandrel and see how it shoots
That Berger 80.5 is the best bullet I have ever played with in my 223 7T Shilen-I Love it!

Good luck!

 

[Coyotefurharvester]

Nice benefit of bushing/mandrels, easy to test different interference fit seating diameters.

 

[CF Junkie]

There is more to this than just the diameter of the cartridge neck.

Anyone who has tried to load light .223 bullets to get minimum jump probably knows that the short, light bullets will fall out of the cartridge neck before they touch the lands in a bolt action rifle. At least they do in all of my 7 .22LR target rifles.
If the bullet isn't seated in the neck, that results in Zero neck tension.
I recently loaded 85.5 Berger Long Range Hybrid Target #22485 bullets in my new Shilen Select Match 1:7 twist barrel. When I measured them in my chamber, there was 0.008 of the bullet body left in the neck of the cartridge. That particular bullet's base to ogive has a 0.166 boat tail that won't touch the neck so the bullet body remaining is much shorter than normal for a bullet that is 1.167 long and incredibly pointy. Too little bullet body in the neck would not provide adequate stability to maintain consistency.
Needless to say, jumps that are in the normal range for the best accuracy for my other Berger bullets are out of the question.

Regardless of the diameter of the neck, you need to have enough bullet body in the neck to maintain enough friction to get a consistent pressure build up before the bullet leaves the neck. The combination of the two factors will either provide the consistency needed for accuracy, or cause variations in bullet release from the cartridge that will mess up accuracy.

 

[Big Mc]

First let me say Im not fond of the term neck tension. However it does seem to attract attention to a post.

So anyways when I was shooting 223 regularly I seemed to focus more on neck concentrity. I used a Forster full size die, removed the expander ball and ran the brass through a 223 mandrel.
That was "good enough" for me.

Now Im considering using some bushing dies that have been gathering dust.

So my question, for guys who have played around, did you find 223 liked more or less "neck tension"

Rifle in question is a 26" Criterion 1-7T barrel. Mostly shoot Berger 80.5s

Thanks guys.

Some guns like it tight and some guns don,t. Tommy Mc

 

[TommyD11730]

Some guns like it tight and some guns don,t. Tommy Mc

Good to know their are no "absolutes " on neck tension and this caliber.

 

[TommyD11730]

Sort of the same as you--started off with regular dies then progressed to others like a honed Forster, Redding bushing dies etc
I was happy with about .002 thou but when I started shooting heavies at longer distances I got a lot more picky about my loading--I am getting better groups at long distance using a .223 mandrel vs a .221 1/2 or .222mandrel Bullet seating goes smooth
So around .001 by some math but who really knows what all is going on --.002 shoots very good too
After I started annealing all things sizing, seating etc felt better and seemed more consistent .

Do like I did --load a batch of the same load--with different size final mandrel and see how it shoots
That Berger 80.5 is the best bullet I have ever played with in my 223 7T Shilen-I Love it!

Good luck!

I only stumbled on the 80.5s when the SMK 80s became unobtanium during covid. Even when the Sierra 80s became available again I never went back to them.

 

[dusterdave173]

Not giving advice, I’ll just share this tid bit for whomever what’s to give it consideration.

I prefer to size down and not mandrel back out again.
Either way one chooses still does the job, but I have learned to test things like bullet hold ( neck tension) in a ladder format just as I would powder or seating depth at as much distance as practical for the conditions.

Jim

Sounds good!
I usually have processed brass ready and it may have been hanging out a while so I run a mandrel in it right before I load. I can't swear if it works or not but seems to for me
There are so many ways to skin this cat and a lot of them work fine--It is good to read and hear what others have had success with --we are lucky to have this forum.

 

[TommyD11730]

Not giving advice, I’ll just share this tid bit for whomever what’s ( wants) to give it consideration.

I prefer to size down and not mandrel back out again.
Either way one chooses still does the job, but I have learned to test things like bullet hold ( neck tension) in a ladder format just as I would powder or seating depth at as much distance as practical for the conditions.

Jim

Can I ask what ID bushing your using and the ID of your neck after sizing? (Just for reference as I'm sure we very well could have different thickness necks)

I was thinking of doing that (That's something I do on 30BR) but it leaves me with a challenge. My only 223 bushing die is a full length sizer. Usually I end up having to trim the case OAL after that.
I trim on a Forester trimmer. The pilot is larger that the ID of the cases. Now I could turn down that pilot to allow me to trim the case OAL on the narrow necks.
But.

Is the juice worth the squeeze?

 

[Bronsin]

I won't bore you with all the details, but if I were to go back to shooting the .223 seriously, it would have .004 neck tension right from the start.

 

[jpjulian]

When I was competing in Highpower and transitioned from an M1A to an AR15 I asked guys who had been around the game much longer than me and who had had far more success. Every single one of them said to use a .243 bushing without the expander button. That diameter give a very firm hold on the bullet. I still use the same bushing 25+ years later in my AR's and my bolt guns as well. I've tried a mandrel to give .002-.003" tension but don't see any significant difference on target. YMMV

 

[kevinbritvec]

First let me say Im not fond of the term neck tension. However it does seem to attract attention to a post.

So anyways when I was shooting 223 regularly I seemed to focus more on neck concentrity. I used a Forster full size die, removed the expander ball and ran the brass through a 223 mandrel.
That was "good enough" for me.

Now Im considering using some bushing dies that have been gathering dust.

So my question, for guys who have played around, did you find 223 liked more or less "neck tension"

Rifle in question is a 26" Criterion 1-7T barrel. Mostly shoot Berger 80.5s

Thanks guys.

I spin polish expander balls on all my sizing dies to get another .001" of neck tension over the factory setting. I never crimp. .003" of neck tension works great in semi-auto rifles which is what I usually shoot.

 

[ronemus]

I find that bullets make lousy expanders (ring around the nose anyone?). I use a custom Hornady elliptical expander of full bullet diameter in my FL sizing dies; the elliptical expander is at least as good as a mandrel, and possibly better because of the tangent lead-in and -out geometry, and it eliminates a step in my process (a big deal with the volume I shoot). I use custom sizing dies that take the neck OD 0.002" under final diameter before expanding. I tried a few FL bushing dies from different vendors, but concentricity was erratic with far too many cases >0.005" TIR. I now get <0.002" TIR with my process, and it gives me maximum bullet retention since only the spring-back of the brass creates grip.