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Adjusting neck tension

You need to have very good shooting skills and a rifle that can consistently shoot 1/4" groups. If a shot is 0.040" out of the group how could you determine what caused it?

My .308 does shoot slightly under 1/4" groups. My .223 and 22-250 at at 5/16" but they have promised me they will get better. But I see your point. I'm thinking that a more consistent neck tension and bullet release will aid in accuracy and a reduction of SD and ES.

Regarding another post, if the taper on the gauge pins resembles the profile on the Sinclair and 21st Century mandrels there shouldn't be any alignment problems.
 
Marchboom - in the past I have used an approach not too different from what it sounds like you're considering. IMO - there are at least a couple things you may want to consider before going that route. First - brass spring-back from a neck that is internally expanded to some diameter with a mandrel will cause it to constrict slightly after the mandrel is removed. This is exactly the opposite direction from the spring-back you would get using a bushing die that constricts the neck from the outside. So you need a mandrel that is slightly larger in diameter than you might expect to achieve a given neck tension (interference fit). For example, Lapua .308 Win Palma brass that had been opened up with a 0.306" mandrel (i.e. 0.002" under bullet diameter) actually gave neck tension somewhere between .0025" to .003". In other words, if you're after .002" neck tension with a .308 case, you really want a mandrel diameter of something like 0.3065", due to spring-back. For that reason, I would consider getting a set that contains pins at more than just even .001" increments, at least within the caliber range you intend to load.

The second question I would ask is whether you turn necks? I do not, which is one of the reasons I wanted to try using a mandrel-based approach. The idea was to first use a bushing die with a bushing approximately .001" to .002" smaller than would be expected to give ~.002" neck tension, then open up the necks with the mandrel as the final sizing step. That would be expected to push any unevenness in neck wall thickness to the outside.

With the caveat as mentioned above that I only had mandrel diameters available of 0.222" (.223 Rem) and 0.306" (.308 Win) and was getting more like .0025" to .003" neck tension due to spring-back, the process worked just fine. The necks were nice and straight and they had very uniform tension when seating bullets. The only question I had was whether that approach was any better than simply using FL resizing with a bushing die. After all, it does require twice as many resizing steps (one with the bushing die to size the necks down, then one with the mandrel to open them back up).

In the end, I decided it was not a better approach in my hands, or rather, it was not worth the extra effort. Perhaps if I was turning necks, or loading for benchrest shooting, where every last little scrap of precision matters, there might have been a more noticeable improvement or benefit to doing it, but I'm not, so it's hard to say. If your rifles and loads are already capable of shooting 0.25 MOA groups, the question you will want to answer before going this route is whether you will observe any benefit in precision for twice the amount of work. Unfortunately, that question is not so easy to answer directly at an online shooting forum, so you really have to go out and try it yourself to determine what this approach might do in your hands.
 
I don't neck turn on any of my rifles. But that would probably be the next thing I would do with the .308. Because I shoot mostly varmints with my .223's and 22-250's I want to stay away from turning due to the shear number of cases I shoot on a varmint hunt.

I did take into consideration spring back and will make my pin gauge size selections based on that.

Guess it all comes down to how much work I want to put into getting a consistent neck tension.

I was just thinking that I could be more accurate and consistent using a FL die or a Lee collet die and then use the mandrel to increase the I.D. of the neck. Might be fun to try different neck tensions to see what works best with a given powder.

Also, moving the unevenness of the neck to the outside seems like it would be a benefit. A mandrel will do that.

And now here's another question. When using a Lee collet die, where does the neck unevenness go? Inside or outside?
 
I don't neck turn on any of my rifles. But that would probably be the next thing I would do with the .308. Because I shoot mostly varmints with my .223's and 22-250's I want to stay away from turning due to the shear number of cases I shoot on a varmint hunt.

I did take into consideration spring back and will make my pin gauge size selections based on that.

Guess it all comes down to how much work I want to put into getting a consistent neck tension.

I was just thinking that I could be more accurate and consistent using a FL die or a Lee collet die and then use the mandrel to increase the I.D. of the neck. Might be fun to try different neck tensions to see what works best with a given powder.

Also, moving the unevenness of the neck to the outside seems like it would be a benefit. A mandrel will do that.

And now here's another question. When using a Lee collet die, where does the neck unevenness go? Inside or outside?
The Lee die squeezes the neck against the central mandrel so in theory, any unevenness goes to the outside.
 
Just to check what I'm using. I took an old Hornady .308 case that had been neck turned and annealed it. Then ran it through a Forster full length die that has been honed to .333 in the neck area, measured the O.D. and wall thickness. And then on a K&M expander that measures .3080. I measured and seated a Hornady .308 ELD Match bullet. With the expander I'm getting right at .001", without the expander between .0026 - .0029. That will vary based on the brass, how easily it conforms and the amount of springback. Too much runout but this isn't being used.

Bullet .......................................... .3081 - .3082

Neck O.D. after resizing .............. .3324 - .3326

Wall thickness after resizing ....... .0141 - .0144

Neck O.D. after expanding........... .3339 - .3345

Neck O.D. after seating bullet ..... .3350 - .3355

Neck Runout ............................... .0015
 
Distance is 100 yds.

Lilja barrel, Jewell trigger, McMillan stock.

I don't shoot matches, not yet anyway. Just no place to shoot benchrest in N. Idaho.
Send me a pm this spring/summer I’ll help ya find a couple places to shoot longer ranges if ya don’t mind driving a couple hours.
I got a 308 also but it doesn’t shoot quite as small but hits what I’m aimin at....
Jim
 
It squeezes from the outside against the solid shaft in the center which forms the size. The outside is somewhat flexible so any irregularities should end up on the outside.

I keep hearing this and as someone who's worked at forming (which involved various methods of squeezing) various aircraft sheet metals, I find it's really not quite correct. When the collet squeezes down there's only pressure on the outside of the neck until the inside of the neck makes contact with the mandrel. Then from there the pressure builds quickly on both sides until it's pretty much equal (equal on both sides). Equal pressure on both sides will not move anything from one side to the other.

Often, when we talk about "irregularities" its about the difference in the axis alignments of the inside and outside diameter. We can often see this difference when neck turning where part of the neck isn't touched while the other side is shaved. This kind of "irregularity" is not "moved to the outside". While the inside diameter axis might be straightened and/or aligned with the case body axis, the neck's inside and outside diameter axes are still not moved into alignment. Only neck turning will get those two axes aligned.

Irregularities, say something like a pimple, or even a narrow band (like a donut) can be squeezed INTO the neck material as the irregularity, with it's small surface area, can not withstand the pressure exerted on it as the opposite side's full surface can. If we use too much lube when sizing, we can see a dimple produced in the brass because liquid is so more difficult to compress than the brass and so the brass is compressed where the liquid has puddled. When that dimple is formed, has that brass moved to the inside? Not much and not at all if against something like a mandrel. . . as it's squeezed into the case or shoulder material around it. Where does it go? Since it has to go somewhere, its manifested in where the brass is squeezed out making the case longer. The same goes for squeezing the neck with a collet die.

Now if you want to move the irregularity to the outside, like a donut, just running a mandrel through the inside of the neck to expand the inside diameter and it will, in effect, move the irregular thickness to the outside. The same effect happens when running a bushing over the outside of the neck, which gives the opposite effect of running an mandrel through the inside.

One can verify any of this by simply taking detailed measurements before and after doing the process. :rolleyes:

Well, that's my understanding of it all after measuring, measuring and measuring. I could be wrong, but it would take a lot to change it. And being old and stubborn, maybe it'd be impossible. ;) :D
 
I keep hearing this and as someone who's worked at forming (which involved various methods of squeezing) various aircraft sheet metals, I find it's really not quite correct. When the collet squeezes down there's only pressure on the outside of the neck until the inside of the neck makes contact with the mandrel. Then from there the pressure builds quickly on both sides until it's pretty much equal (equal on both sides). Equal pressure on both sides will not move anything from one side to the other.

Often, when we talk about "irregularities" its about the difference in the axis alignments of the inside and outside diameter. We can often see this difference when neck turning where part of the neck isn't touched while the other side is shaved. This kind of "irregularity" is not "moved to the outside". While the inside diameter axis might be straightened and/or aligned with the case body axis, the neck's inside and outside diameter axes are still not moved into alignment. Only neck turning will get those two axes aligned.

Irregularities, say something like a pimple, or even a narrow band (like a donut) can be squeezed INTO the neck material as the irregularity, with it's small surface area, can not withstand the pressure exerted on it as the opposite side's full surface can. If we use too much lube when sizing, we can see a dimple produced in the brass because liquid is so more difficult to compress than the brass and so the brass is compressed where the liquid has puddled. When that dimple is formed, has that brass moved to the inside? Not much and not at all if against something like a mandrel. . . as it's squeezed into the case or shoulder material around it. Where does it go? Since it has to go somewhere, its manifested in where the brass is squeezed out making the case longer. The same goes for squeezing the neck with a collet die.

Now if you want to move the irregularity to the outside, like a donut, just running a mandrel through the inside of the neck to expand the inside diameter and it will, in effect, move the irregular thickness to the outside. The same effect happens when running a bushing over the outside of the neck, which gives the opposite effect of running an mandrel through the inside.

One can verify any of this by simply taking detailed measurements before and after doing the process. :rolleyes:

Well, that's my understanding of it all after measuring, measuring and measuring. I could be wrong, but it would take a lot to change it. And being old and stubborn, maybe it'd be impossible. ;) :D

Yes, maybe a poor choice of terms. The outside of the neck is pressed against the central mandrel. I really don't know but suspect that if there is a thick and thin side to the neck, considering the strength of the outside of the die, the mandrel would probably be pressed off center as far as it could be moved in it's bore while keeping the inside diameter reasonably round. Therefore, the neck would still not be on the centerline in the case. I've never checked or measured unturned brass sized in a collet die. Neck turning would alleviate most of this condition. I usually turn everything except .223 which is not intended on being that accurate in my AR. If I used a bolt action, I would. I don't use bushing dies but most others center the outside of the neck with the case body so it's important to have a consistent wall thickness.
 
I keep hearing this ... (entirely reasonable conjecture about movement of brass during sizing snipped)
I sort of have access to a CMM, and have considered taking some brass to it to measure necks in varying conditions (turned, virgin, with irregularities) and resize them with a variety of methods (Lee collet, bushing, expander ball, expander mandrel) and perform a little study.

An accurate scanning CMM will show contours and waviness in the neck.

I have to believe someone else has done this. Has it been done?
 
I sort of have access to a CMM, and have considered taking some brass to it to measure necks in varying conditions (turned, virgin, with irregularities) and resize them with a variety of methods (Lee collet, bushing, expander ball, expander mandrel) and perform a little study.

An accurate scanning CMM will show contours and waviness in the neck.

I have to believe someone else has done this. Has it been done?

That would be great. I would love to see it. I measured just one case (in this post) as close as I could measuring everything several times with micrometers. Why even after annealing some are near perfect and others aren't? With a collet die, I would think that the center being presses against the mandrel could try to be round, less any springback, where the outside wouldn't be. There isn't enough force to flow the metal. I only use a collet die with turned brass to reset the neck without sizing the body. In you test also try some old hard brass and some freshly annealed. I've had some I couldn't get round no matter what, even after annealing twice, firing, turning the necks 100%, and still .004" or more out. I noticed that when the cutter (23° cutter on a 20° shoulder) touched the shoulder it rode down 1/8" or more on one side and none on the other indicating the case body and shoulder had varying thickness or the shoulder was off center.
 
I sort of have access to a CMM, and have considered taking some brass to it to measure necks in varying conditions (turned, virgin, with irregularities) and resize them with a variety of methods (Lee collet, bushing, expander ball, expander mandrel) and perform a little study.

An accurate scanning CMM will show contours and waviness in the neck.

I have to believe someone else has done this. Has it been done?

I'm not aware of it having been done. It's a fine idea. I'm aware that there's technology out there that can be quite definitive on this matter. I just don't have the resources to do that detailed kind of research. Loving scientific research as I do, I'd love to actually do it or even see it done. :)
 
Distance is 100 yds.

Lilja barrel, Jewell trigger, McMillan stock.

I don't shoot matches, not yet anyway. Just no place to shoot benchrest in N. Idaho.

What part of N.Idaho are ya from?....Im in S.E Washington and have a place in Lewiston Idaho. I compete or I have competed at Deep Creek range in Missoula Mt. about a 4 hour drive.
Wayne
 

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