22 hornet way over pressure

[JSH]

All I use in 22Hornet is SPP. Yes they get pretty flat, no leaks and have never had one blown, TC pistol and a Savage model 40. I don’t try to make the Hornet what it isn’t, 221,222,223 etc.

I learned a fair bit on small cases working with the 17HH. Even if your brass is all the same head stamp but from different lots, weigh the cases and see if there is a big variation.

 

[dellet]

Something else to check, and this is for all 22 Hornet shooters, is bore size. Older rifles, European, or even those made to tight specs, may have a .222” bore.

Many, probably most if not all, bullets labeled “22 Hornet” will be .223” instead of .224” and be short for weight class. The original Hornets were generally using rimfire barrels and specs for the cartridge/bore reflect those dimensions.

 

[brokeasajoke]

Weigh some S&B cases. Compare to weight of Winchester cases. If S&B cases heavier generally less capacity.
I have a 218 Mashburn bee, Winchester cases 7 gr heavier than Hornady, higher pressure/velocity with same charge.

57.2 weight on s&b and 52.8 on the Winchester. @Jager is kind enough to run a QL on this and I sent him some measurements.

 

[Jager]

Your .566 bullet length and 15.1 average for H2O case capacity are both very close to QuickLoad defaults, Josh (0.565" and 15.09, respectively). So nothing unusual there, and the QL print doesn't predict anything unusual...



You could slug your bore to confirm sizing, the issue that dellet spoke to, but with a Ruger M77 I wouldn't expect that to be the issue.

I'd double-check your empty case length. Beyond that I'd back off your charge a bit. If you can get access to a chronograph, that would tell a lot.

 

[lawman29]

57.2 capacity on s&b and 52.8 on the Winchester.

Capacity or weight?

 

[moorepower]

I use 13.0 with a 40 Vmax, and spp in a Savage 40 and the spp still look good. I can tell you that LilGun acts differently in a straight wall round, like the std Hornet than a K hornet.

 

[brokeasajoke]

Capacity or weight?

Weight. Thanks. I edited post.
Tried 9gr this morning and got the same primer. Still no chrono. That happens when you move. You can't find anything. Pic is a cci srp wit 10.2gr cause that's what came out of the lee dipper. As you can see it is neither flattend or crattered but it has backed out a little. Maybe this is purely a brass and thin primer cup issue. Either way I'm not going any further until the crono is found or I get another.

 

[gambleone]

Try different brass to take out that variable.

 

[dellet]

Weight. Thanks. I edited post.View attachment 1293502
Tried 9gr this morning and got the same primer. Still no chrono. That happens when you move. You can't find anything. Pic is a cci srp wit 10.2gr cause that's what came out of the lee dipper. As you can see it is neither flattend or crattered but it has backed out a little. Maybe this is purely a brass and thin primer cup issue. Either way I'm not going any further until the crono is found or I get another.

That's a pretty classic example of a low pressure, rimmed cartridge primer. Enough pressure for the case to grab the chamber, let the primer pop out, but not enough pressure to have the case move back or lengthen and reseat the primer.

Basically the primer protrusion is your headspace.

It might help to stop thinking in a grain adjustment of powder charge and start thinking %. That helped me a lot in small cases.

Dropping from 12 grains to 10.2 is 15% reduction. If you do a ladder of 2% increases, 0.2 grains a step.

Do you have anything else Lil'gun is used for?

Might do a load in something else to see if it loads hot.

 

[brokeasajoke]

That's a pretty classic example of a low pressure, rimmed cartridge primer. Enough pressure for the case to grab the chamber, let the primer pop out, but not enough pressure to have the case move back or lengthen and reseat the primer.

Basically the primer protrusion is your headspace.

It might help to stop thinking in a grain adjustment of powder charge and start thinking %. That helped me a lot in small cases.

Dropping from 12 grains to 10.2 is 15% reduction. If you do a ladder of 2% increases, 0.2 grains a step.

Do you have anything else Lil'gun is used for?

Might do a load in something else to see if it loads hot.

No I don't use it in anything else.

 

[dellet]

Your .566 bullet length and 15.1 average for H2O case capacity are both very close to QuickLoad defaults, Josh (0.565" and 15.09, respectively). So nothing unusual there, and the QL print doesn't predict anything unusual...

View attachment 1293497

You could slug your bore to confirm sizing, the issue that dellet spoke to, but with a Ruger M77 I wouldn't expect that to be the issue.

I'd double-check your empty case length. Beyond that I'd back off your charge a bit. If you can get access to a chronograph, that would tell a lot.

Jager,
Did you happen to look at the Charge Variation table for that load?

Wonder what the predicted pressure on the 10% above was.

For those who haven't worked with Quickload, one of the things it will do is set up a table of predicted pressure/velocity for a load ladder and also calculate your starting load pressures based on a 10% lot to lot variation in the powder. The high and low are often 20,000 PSI or more difference.

 

[lawman29]

Ken Waters pet loads favorite powders for Hornet are H/IMR 4227 and 1680.

 

[gambleone]

Had the exact same thing happen with a 22-250. New nosler brass and winchester primers. Changed to new winchester brass and cci-200 primers, used same load, same everything. Problem gone. Not sure if it was it was the brass or primers. Still scratch my head about that one.

 

[PigButtons]

Weight. Thanks. I edited post.View attachment 1293502
Tried 9gr this morning and got the same primer. Still no chrono. That happens when you move. You can't find anything. Pic is a cci srp wit 10.2gr cause that's what came out of the lee dipper. As you can see it is neither flattend or crattered but it has backed out a little. Maybe this is purely a brass and thin primer cup issue. Either way I'm not going any further until the crono is found or I get another.

Brass variation. I have some Hornady brass that will not hold a primer when new, and when they do seat, the primer tends to back out just like yours. As long as you don't get gas escaping around the primer it isn't a big problem.

 

[Jager]

Jager,
Did you happen to look at the Charge Variation table for that load?

Wonder what the predicted pressure on the 10% above was.

For those who haven't worked with Quickload, one of the things it will do is set up a table of predicted pressure/velocity for a load ladder and also calculate your starting load pressures based on a 10% lot to lot variation in the powder. The high and low are often 20,000 PSI or more difference.

Here is the charge variation chart that dellet was referring to.




And here is a list of powders run to the 43511 psi SAAMI max of the .22 K-Hornet / maximum 104% charge density, with burn rates between 0.8 and 0.9 (QL default is 0.8550). At max SAAMI, the charge density that the OP is using is a tiny bit higher, and makes more velocity, than the W296/H110 that I use, but otherwise they're not that far apart.



The OP's rifle and lot of LilGun have not been calibrated with QuickLoad, so these numbers should not be assumed to be accurate in his rifle. The two things that would provide some insight there would be chrono numbers, and/or running a different headstamp of brass.

 

[brokeasajoke]

Picked up some h110 to try. I tried a srp and 12.5gr the other day. Just walked outside and pulled the trigger (with appropriate PPE of course) and primer looked great. So maybe lilgun and spp don't mix. Chrono is in hand and a new battery for it purchased so weather fitting, we'll put some through it tomorrow.

 

[Park ranger]

That's a pretty classic example of a low pressure, rimmed cartridge primer. Enough pressure for the case to grab the chamber, let the primer pop out, but not enough pressure to have the case move back or lengthen and reseat the primer.

Basically the primer protrusion is your headspace.

It might help to stop thinking in a grain adjustment of powder charge and start thinking %. That helped me a lot in small cases.

Dropping from 12 grains to 10.2 is 15% reduction. If you do a ladder of 2% increases, 0.2 grains a step.

Do you have anything else Lil'gun is used for?

Might do a load in something else to see if it loads hot.

As to primer protrusion is headspace… my buddy m77 has a headspace issue. He wrapped dental floss above the rim, problem solved. Pain I T A.

 

[Jager]

Fifteen years ago I bought a pound of LilGun, intending to try it in my .22 Hornet. But with W296/H110 being such a favored powder of mine, I just never got around to it.

Josh's high pressure experience with his K-Hornet had me curious, though. So day before yesterday I screwed the top off that never-before-opened bottle of LilGun and prepped a quick ladder.

Standard .22 Hornet, Nosler brass (new), Berger 40gr FB Varmint HP, and Winchester SPP.

Funny thing, though. That just-opened bottle of LilGun (bought from a local gun shop) smelled kinda funny. Instead of the lovely smell of ether that most of us associate with smokeless powder, it had a rather sour smell. Visually it looked fine, though, and after debating for a moment I went ahead and loaded the ladder.

QuickLoad predicts these velocities/pressures with LilGun and the Berger 40gr. I was using...



I loaded a ladder in 0.2gr. increments, three shots each, from 10.0 to 10.8. With specific QL tweaks to COAL/seating depth, bullet length, and case capacity, that maximum load looks like this...



Yesterday, I sat down at the bench and sent them downrange. The first shot clocked in at 2844 fps, nearly 200 fps higher than the QL prediction, and very close to what I expected for the maximum load, not the minimum. With a keen eye on the Labradar, I was fully expecting to have to abort the series.

That didn't happen. But the fifteen rounds of that LilGun ladder gave me the most erratic readings of anything I've ever chronographed.

Results on paper were respectable (noting that I screwed up the last charge group - putting two of the shots onto my fouler target). But not nearly as good as my reference load of 10.5/W296.





I'm going to re-run the ladder once I can buy another pound of LilGun, to assuage my curiosity about the integrity of that 15-year-old canister that I used here. But, yeah, no doubt W296/H110 will continue to be my go-to in .22 Hornet.

 

[dellet]

I have bought and sold or given away probably 15 pounds of Lil'gun over the years. It's just never quite found a place to fit in with what I shoot. I have rarely been able to get the load density/velocities claimed without pressure problems and when I have got close, accuracy was terrible compared to other powders.

I always have a pound around to try tho it seems, someday I'll find a good fit.

What seems to be a pattern for me is that as the load gets towards 100% density, velocity kind of stalls. then a primer pops at the same time velocity takes a huge jump..

 

[Tommie]

When Lil Gun first came out, the small caliber guys on the saubier site did a lot of experimenting with it in the hornet case. Results were VERY erratic. Some folks had great luck while others experienced crazy pressure spikes. IIRC the consensus was that there was a big lot-to-lot variation in this powder.