1k tune at 100

[Sheldon N]

Actually I think he was in the top third but not sure.

I looked it up... those trophies represent a 70th place, 73rd place and 78th place in the overall match results. Two of those matches he was the only shooter in the production division, one of those matches he beat out two other shooters who had very poor scores.

Sorry to call you out on it, but I've got a burr in my saddle generally about the PRS production division being a complete joke.

 

[dsculley]

From what I read, one of the main differences in this type of load development and others is the terminal velocity information. It seems to me that could be a big game changer for long range load development. It is amazing that when someone offers something new and different there are those who try to attack them. I don't see why some are so hung up on the $250.00 fee. If you don't feel that you need this kind of service, why are you so offended by the fee?

Knowledge costs money one way or another. It appears to me that for the knowledge gained during the load development and the use of the facilities this could be some of the best money a shooter could spend since you are not only finding a load for your current rifle but also learning about the process. It seems that Eric has developed a lot of data and learned to use that data to his advantage. Why shouldn't he be compensated for sharing that information? To me, this is no different that going to a shooting school. You pay for the teachers knowledge and the use of the range when you go to a school. I don't see this as any different.

He has explained his process. He has told about his database and the tools he uses. If you don't think you need his help, then you have suffered no ill from his offering. If you decide to try it, then you have one of two outcomes: You leave a happy customer with a very accurate load for your rifle, or you spent time and money to go to his place and shoot at his facility (most of us would gladly do this part anyway) and you leave disappointed you don't have the "magic" load but you don't pay the $250.00 fee. Wouldn't it be nice if the shooting schools offered a refund if by the end of the school you were not shooting to some precision standard? He sounds pretty fair to me.

By the way, here in GA are you? It sounds like a road trip may be in order. SW Alabama here.

 

[One Shot One Thrill]

I looked it up... those trophies represent a 70th place, 73rd place and 78th place in the overall match results. Two of those matches he was the only shooter in the production division, one of those matches he beat out two other shooters who had very poor scores.

Sorry to call you out on it, but I've got a burr in my saddle generally about the PRS production division being a complete joke.

Okay no worries I got thick skin. I will check with him just to confirm that that is true I do not doubt you though but I do not know. I don't know if you shoot PRS or not but he is going to the finale are you?

 

[One Shot One Thrill]

From what I read, one of the main differences in this type of load development and others is the terminal velocity information. It seems to me that could be a big game changer for long range load development. It is amazing that when someone offers something new and different there are those who try to attack them. I don't see why some are so hung up on the $250.00 fee. If you don't feel that you need this kind of service, why are you so offended by the fee?

Knowledge costs money one way or another. It appears to me that for the knowledge gained during the load development and the use of the facilities this could be some of the best money a shooter could spend since you are not only finding a load for your current rifle but also learning about the process. It seems that Eric has developed a lot of data and learned to use that data to his advantage. Why shouldn't he be compensated for sharing that information? To me, this is no different that going to a shooting school. You pay for the teachers knowledge and the use of the range when you go to a school. I don't see this as any different.

He has explained his process. He has told about his database and the tools he uses. If you don't think you need his help, then you have suffered no ill from his offering. If you decide to try it, then you have one of two outcomes: You leave a happy customer with a very accurate load for your rifle, or you spent time and money to go to his place and shoot at his facility (most of us would gladly do this part anyway) and you leave disappointed you don't have the "magic" load but you don't pay the $250.00 fee. Wouldn't it be nice if the shooting schools offered a refund if by the end of the school you were not shooting to some precision standard? He sounds pretty fair to me.

By the way, here in GA are you? It sounds like a road trip may be in order. SW Alabama here.

I'm located close to Swainsboro Georgia about 30 minutes from Dublin Georgia right off I-16 at Exit 84

 

[Delfuego]

but I've got a burr in my saddle generally about the PRS production division being a complete joke.

What? Wait? Really

 

[Sheldon N]

Okay no worries I got thick skin. I will check with him just to confirm that that is true I do not doubt you though but I do not know. I don't know if you shoot PRS or not but he is going to the finale are you?

No need to verify with him and I'm not trying to call him out. All the match results are published on the PRS website and easily verified by anyone. You can look up any shooters profile, mine included.

Yes, I shoot PRS and will likely be at the finale this year. And I'm not doing it through the backdoor of the Production division.

 

[dcali]

Terminal velocity is at best a dubious way to tune a load, and that's if you can measure it accurately. I won't say it's worthless, because you never know. There could be some minor effect related to external ballistics, but not related to individual bullet BC variations (which we cannot control with tuning, but we can control with sorting), although I'm stretching to find an explanation as to how that could be. How are we to explain how tune impacts terminal velocity?

Further, a large part of a rifle's lack of inherent precision is due to aerodynamic jump and cg jump - which are launch effects that are linear with range and have nothing to do with exterior ballistics. Getting a rifle to shoot under .3 MOA at any distance means getting this part right, and that's not easy. There are tons of rifles out there, including many customs, that simply can't get there reliably. No amount of tuning will mitigate these effects because they are random in direction and unrelated to minor variations in velocity. Fixing them is the purpose of good reamers, chambering practices, high quality bullets, good brass prep, good powder choice, sorting, etc - all aimed getting a good bullet to hit the bore straight and stay that way. Barrel vibration just isn't a credible part of that equation.

These effects are well documented by scientifically sound research done by the BRL and other similar organizations.

This is not an attack, just a critique of the method as described.

 

[One Shot One Thrill]

No need to verify with him and I'm not trying to call him out. All the match results are published on the PRS website and easily verified by anyone. You can look up any shooters profile, mine included.

Yes, I shoot PRS and will likely be at the finale this year. And I'm not doing it through the backdoor of the Production division.

Good deal lots of luck

 

[One Shot One Thrill]

Terminal velocity is at best a dubious way to tune a load, and that's if you can measure it accurately. I won't say it's worthless, because you never know. There could be some minor effect related to external ballistics, but not related to individual bullet BC variations (which we cannot control with tuning, but we can control with sorting), although I'm stretching to find an explanation as to how that could be. How are we to explain how tune impacts terminal velocity?

Further, a large part of a rifle's lack of inherent precision is due to aerodynamic jump and cg jump - which are launch effects that are linear with range and have nothing to do with exterior ballistics. Getting a rifle to shoot under .3 MOA at any distance means getting this part right, and that's not easy. There are tons of rifles out there, including many customs, that simply can't get there reliably. No amount of tuning will mitigate these effects because they are random in direction and unrelated to minor variations in velocity. Fixing them is the purpose of good reamers, chambering practices, high quality bullets, good brass prep, good powder choice, sorting, etc - all aimed getting a good bullet to hit the bore straight and stay that way. Barrel vibration just isn't a credible part of that equation.

These effects are well documented by scientifically sound research done by the BRL and other similar organizations.

This is not an attack, just a critique of the method as described.

 

[One Shot One Thrill]

Thank God we live in the greatest country on the planet the United States of America where everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Once upon a time it was believed that the world was flat and others that disagreed were killed for their beliefs. Today we are allowed to believe what we may so be it. What I believe and have proven to myself and others is indirect conflict with some of your previous statements. I do not claim to have found the Holy Grail of tuning but any rifle that I have applied my methods to has shot in 3 inch or less three shots at a thousand yards and it does seem to fare very well coming back down to a hundred. I am sorry if that statement offends you please don't take it personally.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

Those are some nice trophies for 70+ place. Id like to get something that nice someday

 

[Sheldon N]

Those are some nice trophies for 70+ place. Id like to get something that nice someday

You should see what the winner of the open division gets.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

You should see what the winner of the open division gets.

All i get at my matches are wood plaques- sometimes different colors but 99% of the time its fake pressed sawdust

 

[Raythemanroe]

I looked it up... those trophies represent a 70th place, 73rd place and 78th place in the overall match results. Two of those matches he was the only shooter in the production division, one of those matches he beat out two other shooters who had very poor scores.

Sorry to call you out on it, but I've got a burr in my saddle generally about the PRS production division being a complete joke.

Must be really competitive if a 3" 1k gun can only rank 70th!!

Ray

 

[Raythemanroe]

Thank God we live in the greatest country on the planet the United States of America where everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Once upon a time it was believed that the world was flat and others that disagreed were killed for their beliefs. Today we are allowed to believe what we may so be it. What I believe and have proven to myself and others is indirect conflict with some of your previous statements. I do not claim to have found the Holy Grail of tuning but any rifle that I have applied my methods to has shot in 3 inch or less three shots at a thousand yards and it does seem to fare very well coming back down to a hundred. I am sorry if that statement offends you please don't take it personally.

If you are doing 1k ladder powder tuning looking for overlapping nodes, I don't doubt your findings.. I'm all for capitalism and more power to you if you find a need that helps folks..

Ray

 

[Sheldon N]

Must be really competitive if a 3" 1k gun can only rank 70th!!

Ray

PRS doesn't really need that accurate of a rifle. If you can hold around 1/2 MOA or maybe even 3/4 MOA then you can still win a match. It's much more about shooter skill than rifle accuracy.

 

[fredo]

Thank God we live in the greatest country on the planet the United States of America where everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Once upon a time it was believed that the world was flat and others that disagreed were killed for their beliefs.

May wanna throttle back on the ad hominem, Copernicus. It's not making a 70th place coaching job look any better...

Too bad you can't just share in your newfound knowledge? Since ya can't/won't spill the beans, whats the point of this thread...advertising?

 

[One Shot One Thrill]

Must be really competitive if a 3" 1k gun can only rank 70th!!

Ray

PRS is extremely competitive with several different classes but you are ranked overall by score no handicapping for factory class,gas, tactical ECT. which has limitations. It would be kind of like shooting HG against LG in bench rest.
It is truly fun extremely well attended and usually I've not heard any whining but it looks like that might be starting.

 

[One Shot One Thrill]

May wanna throttle back on the ad hominem, Copernicus. It's not making a 70th place coaching job look any better...

Too bad you can't just share in your newfound knowledge? Since ya can't/won't spill the beans, whats the point of this thread...advertising?

Actually I was hoping to find someone that has gone down the same path to compare notes with so to say. I have gotten a couple of prospects. If I was to spill the beans as you say I'm afraid all you would have is bean soup.

 

[daniel brothers]

I for one would never spill the beans to ANYONE that has such a bad attitude as some of the Guys I see on this thread... I'm embarrassed for them.