A fussy or finicky round to tune.

[Curious]

I hear this so often, "its a fussy round to tune"

So what exactly does it mean?

Im sure we have all heard this, 6x47Lapua springs to mind, Ive heard someone recently saying the same about 6BRA and also 7RSAUM.

Im struggling to get my head around what the characteristics of a fussy cartridge look like compared to a less fussy one? Can anyone help me with examples of how fussy and unfussy really differ?

My thoughts are that at the extreme end of accuracy they are all fussy and can take a bit of work to tune a load to give you the very best the barrel can give.

Im confused by this tag some cartridges are given.

 

[Curious]

Anyone?

 

[joshb]

Wait for the evening crowd to chime in. I can't help as I shoot easy stuff because of my limitations. I'm interested too because I have a 270 WSM necked up to 7mm on it's way.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

The more overbore a case, the more tuning it seems to need in regard to powder and primer choices. Once you figure that out, they are all easy to tune. Some cases, all the works done and you can google a very close starting point. Others you will have to work up all on your own. Tuning is a skill. Not enough shooters put enough effort into honing their own tuning skills. I'd say thats the biggest thing holding back most shooters. I get to see a lot of targets and tuning data. Most of it is unusable data. You should be able to go to the range, tune, interpret the data and know what to do next. I have fought some cases. Every time I was giving it the wrong combo. Once I figured out the correct powder, primer and bullet, it was easy peasy.

 

[joshb]

"Once I figured out the correct powder, primer and bullet, it was easy peasy."[/QUOTE]
There's a lot in that sentence!

 

[jimmymac]

You always hear about how fussy a PPC is. It's not fussy. It's more a matter of guys trying to wring every last little bit out of it in a game that's won by thousandths.

Put that same gun in a varmint hunters hands and that guy would probably tell you how easy it is to reload for.

Same caliber. Two different viewpoints. Both valid.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

"Once I figured out the correct powder, primer and bullet, it was easy peasy."

There's a lot in that sentence![/QUOTE]


Exactly.
A 28 or 30 Nosler should be a fussy case. Its way overbore. But the works been done and I'll tell you exactly what to put in it. All you have to do if tweak seating and powder. Starting from scratch is more work and we are all guilty of being stubborn and not giving a barrel what it wants. I find the bigger cases are more picky on the powder/primer combos. I love H1000 for example. Depending on the case I use it in, its preference for primers changes. That fought me until I figured it out. Now I treat every new case like it has nothing to do with any other case and give them full work up.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

You always hear about how fussy a PPC is. It's not fussy. It's more a matter of guys trying to wring every last little bit out of it in a game that's won by thousandths.

Put that same gun in a varmint hunters hands and that guy would probably tell you how easy it is to reload for.

Same caliber. Two different viewpoints. Both valid.

Bingo. Im guilty of posting how theres no window at 1k. Its true. You want 1" of vertical you need to be on it. .1 either way and the vertical increases. Same for seating depth. Now if your after 5" at 1k, theres a window. Context is important and I am very guilty of skipping that. When I say go out of tune, I am talking 3" when we know its capable of smaller.

 

[ShootDots]

I don't know if the terminology of a "cartridge being finicky" is good nomenclature. Having said that, I will give you an actual example of being "finicky".. One of my Dashers was HORRIBLE! Now mind you, a Dasher is "normally" easy, no VERY easy to tune. However, the one I had took lots of work. I took 30.0grs of VV N540, with a 105 VLD jammed 15 thousandths to fireform the 6mmBR case into Dasher brass. I went to a 600 F-Open match and promptly shot a 597-HIGH 20X count. I dropped the 3 points from 3 case shoulder splits from the fireforming. However, VV N540 is very hard on barrels under Competitive conditions of long shot strings. I wanted to use Varget. No bullet or charge weight would shoot worth a hoot with Varget. So, let's try RL-15>>same thing..Now this was not just with the 2 powders, it also involved 105 Hybrids, 105 JLKs and 108 Bergers. NOTHING! I then remembered that the VV N540 shot very well fireforming. So I worked up a load with the Berger 105 VLDs and 33.0grs of N540. VOILA!! But it would ONLY shoot with 105 VLDs and the N540 powder! SUPER ACCURACY! Now was the Dasher "finicky" or was the barrel "finicky"? I think that when we have problems finding a load fairly easily, it is a "finicky" barrel, NOT the cartridge! Some cartridges may be a bit easier to tune than others, however, if all had excellent barrels, I believe the finicky cartridge theory would soon pass..

 

[dcali]

Some 'nodes' are bigger (in charge weight or seating depth tolerance). When people say "easy to tune", they mean that the node is insensitive to variations, where as finicky combinations require more precise tolerances to keep groups small. I'm not aware of an generalities that would predispose a system to being finicky, but that's just my own ignorance.

But the REAL truth is that benchrest shooters think *everything* is fussy, because they're never satisfied.

 

[Terry]

Sometimes the problem is pushing too hard. Trying to get too much velocity. I think of the 6.5X47 and the .284 Shehane. They can be pushed hard, but often will shoot better slower.

 

[Curious]

I don't know if the terminology of a "cartridge being finicky" is good nomenclature. Having said that, I will give you an actual example of being "finicky".. One of my Dashers was HORRIBLE! Now mind you, a Dasher is "normally" easy, no VERY easy to tune. However, the one I had took lots of work. I took 30.0grs of VV N540, with a 105 VLD jammed 15 thousandths to fireform the 6mmBR case into Dasher brass. I went to a 600 F-Open match and promptly shot a 597-HIGH 20X count. I dropped the 3 points from 3 case shoulder splits from the fireforming. However, VV N540 is very hard on barrels under Competitive conditions of long shot strings. I wanted to use Varget. No bullet or charge weight would shoot worth a hoot with Varget. So, let's try RL-15>>same thing..Now this was not just with the 2 powders, it also involved 105 Hybrids, 105 JLKs and 108 Bergers. NOTHING! I then remembered that the VV N540 shot very well fireforming. So I worked up a load with the Berger 105 VLDs and 30.0grs of N540. VOILA!! But it would ONLY shoot with 105 VLDs and the N540 powder! SUPER ACCURACY! Now was the Dasher "finicky" or was the barrel "finicky"? I think that when we have problems finding a load fairly easily, it is a "finicky" barrel, NOT the cartridge! Some cartridges may be a bit easier to tune than others, however, if all had excellent barrels, I believe the finicky cartridge theory would soon pass..

That is exactly where I am with my thinking, your example is something I have seen before. Because of the many easy to tune Dashers previously it could never have been the cartridge and must have been either the barrel, the build itself or possibly the components used for the load if they differed in batch etc to the successful ones used previously.

 

[Curious]

Bingo. Im guilty of posting how theres no window at 1k. Its true. You want 1" of vertical you need to be on it. .1 either way and the vertical increases. Same for seating depth. Now if your after 5" at 1k, theres a window. Context is important and I am very guilty of skipping that. When I say go out of tune, I am talking 3" when we know its capable of smaller.

Yes you certainly have been but thanks for clearing that up now, much appreciated

 

[msinc]

About the only round I have heard that term laid on is the 243 Winchester. I think it came about by hunters with sporter barrels reloading and trying to get them to shoot. I have had more than the usual troubles with a couple of mine and they were all hunting rifles with sporter barrels. I have never had a heavy or varmint barreled 243 to know if it was any different.
I don't know, some rifles tune up real easy and some don't....really it could be a lot of things. I definitely never had any trouble with the 6mm PPC. Honestly, I had the most trouble with a couple 280AI's, but some of it was issues with the rifle itself and some was the bullets.

 

[Curious]

About the only round I have heard that term laid on is the 243 Winchester. I think it came about by hunters with sporter barrels reloading and trying to get them to shoot. I have had more than the usual troubles with a couple of mine and they were all hunting rifles with sporter barrels. I have never had a heavy or varmint barreled 243 to know if it was any different.
I don't know, some rifles tune up real easy and some don't....really it could be a lot of things. I definitely never had any trouble with the 6mm PPC. Honestly, I had the most trouble with a couple 280AI's, but some of it was issues with the rifle itself and some was the bullets.

With thin sporter barrels and cartridges like the .243 and bigger its very easy to over-heat the barrel very quickly, before you know it its spitting them everywhere and load development becomes difficult.

 

[SBS]

I don't know if the terminology of a "cartridge being finicky" is good nomenclature. Having said that, I will give you an actual example of being "finicky".. One of my Dashers was HORRIBLE! Now mind you, a Dasher is "normally" easy, no VERY easy to tune. However, the one I had took lots of work. I took 30.0grs of VV N540, with a 105 VLD jammed 15 thousandths to fireform the 6mmBR case into Dasher brass. I went to a 600 F-Open match and promptly shot a 597-HIGH 20X count. I dropped the 3 points from 3 case shoulder splits from the fireforming. However, VV N540 is very hard on barrels under Competitive conditions of long shot strings. I wanted to use Varget. No bullet or charge weight would shoot worth a hoot with Varget. So, let's try RL-15>>same thing..Now this was not just with the 2 powders, it also involved 105 Hybrids, 105 JLKs and 108 Bergers. NOTHING! I then remembered that the VV N540 shot very well fireforming. So I worked up a load with the Berger 105 VLDs and 33.0grs of N540. VOILA!! But it would ONLY shoot with 105 VLDs and the N540 powder! SUPER ACCURACY! Now was the Dasher "finicky" or was the barrel "finicky"? I think that when we have problems finding a load fairly easily, it is a "finicky" barrel, NOT the cartridge! Some cartridges may be a bit easier to tune than others, however, if all had excellent barrels, I believe the finicky cartridge theory would soon pass..

Very much agree. I have several .22-250 varmint rifles that shoot in the .2's and .3's regularly. Couple of years ago I put a new takeoff Rem. ss varmint on a 40X action and ran over 100 rounds through it with nothing under 3/4". Reading something from Sierra on the 55 HPBT (a bullet I had not considered due to its lower BC) , had a box, and 1st group with my favorite .22-250 powder (RL-15) was under .2. No fluke either, stays in the 2's for 5 shot groups but won't with any other bullet or even another powder. In the others of same caliber, workup was fairly quick and they shoot a variety of bullets well, some just a little bit better than others. I find that changing the bullet (if feasible for your purpose) often gives faster results than anything else with a barrel that doesn't show good results fairly quickly.