1k tune at 100

[fredo]

I for one would never spill the beans to ANYONE that has such a bad attitude as some of the Guys I see on this thread... I'm embarrassed for them.

Who ya embarrassed for, Dan?

Members who routinely contribute FREELY of their experience & share earned knowledge, for the simple sake of sharing a passionate opinion?

Or, those who don't?

Tell ya what'd be embarrassing, if a buncha grown men sat around holding hands & agreeing with each other, all friggin day long!

That said, I've already outlined a very basic, very easy way to find a good load...FAST! All ya gotta do read up some, digest & apply what ya learned. And, surely, there are prolly dozens, if not hundreds of members here who've developed their own 'formula' over the years. Many of these members have been only too willing to share what works for them, and have done it for the betterment of this forum! That established, this isn't about needing to spill the beans, rather the fact that so many members here spill the beans, all day, every day...for the mutual benefit of all members...

Yet, now I'm sensing that this forum is being used to monetize that same type of knowledge?
Do you realize the ramifications of NOT questioning that???

Just think, where would a forum like this be, if every savvy reloader sought to get paid for some cool little trick they figgered out, instead of just sharing it freely on the board?

What sort of quality content would be shared, anymore???

Can you fathom the notion of board like this, which contain TONS of 'free knowledge', being relegated to a 'vendor farm', where members are seen, not as engaging in fun discussions, but rather cultivated as customers?

Just some things to ponder...

And, I'm only bringing this up, cuz this has been a trend on lots of boards, for quite some time now. This board happens to still be a great place, and members even freely PAY $$$ to 'sponsor' it (silver/gold members). That alone, tells ya sumthin'...

Not that there's anything WRONG with vendors 'farming' message boards for customers. Its just that, when knowledge becomes monetized to a certain point, it then simply becomes a matter of whether actual contributing members wish to remain so, as a captive targeted market. Or, do they just fade off into the sunset, taking their contributions with them?

See the dilemma? Surely, you've seen this happen on other boards???

Be embarrassed for me, if you must...I don't give a flip. Just sayin, some people don't recognize a good thing, till it's gone. If OP has the secret sauce, more power to him. Nothing personal against the man, at all! I just fear that, when knowledge that is otherwise freely shared has a dollar value stamped on it, there are consequences that I'd hope to see avoided. So, I'll just keep on noting the 'walkbacks', and thinking for myself...

Good shooting

 

[Knotwild]

Ok, just pretend in your head that he is charging you for a very nice range (which I may have seen in it's infancy) and using his equipment and his time. Then everything should be ok right?

 

[fredo]

Ok, just pretend in your head that he is charging you for a very nice range (which I may have seen in it's infancy) and using his equipment and his time. Then everything should be ok right?

 

[Raythemanroe]

I think after 9 pages the only thing for sure is there is a market for accuracy.

Ray

 

[dnellans]

That's not exactly how it works.

There are only two real classes in PRS... Open and Tactical (aka 223/308). There's an entirely separate series for gas guns, different matches, different rules etc, but in normal PRS if you bring a gas gun you are still either Open or Tactical. Tactical is a legitimate division due to their ballistic disadvantage in the wind.

Production division is the bastard stepchild, a well intentioned idea that somehow the price tag associated with a match rifle was why shooters were scared of getting into the sport. They thought that a price cap of $4k instead of the typical $5-6k would level the playing field. Instead what you got is the big fish small pond syndrome. There are only twelve guys NATIONALLY who are in that production division, compared to the thousands of registered and unregistered shooters who compete in the Open division. And the rifles they shoot in the production division are functionally no different than an open gun. Sure, they are built to a price point but the gun you showed in the picture is pretty much the exact same gun I shoot. Same chassis, brake, etc. No competitive advantage whatsoever. And there's so few production shooters that only half the PRS matches even have someone show up.

So realistically it's more like creating a "purple gun" division within LG benchrest, then giving a trophy to the guy who showed up with a purple gun because he was the only one who had one. Then him going online and showing off all the "purple gun" trophies he won, which mean nothing.

THAT's why I have a burr in my saddle about Production Division.

Hey - I resemble that comment! (and its not that hard to figure out who I am as a result) As one of the 12 guys shooting production I actually appreciate the fact we get our own class. There are a few more than 12 shooters total (but I'd still guess less than 50), but they're usually not PRS registered for the $100. I really wish there were more of us it would make the tracking/competing aspect of it more fun within our little division.

I agree prod vs open is functionally no different, but I probably wouldn't have started shooting national matches if I had thought I needed to go sink 6k into a gun to not embarrass myself. The total amount I've got into my gun, glass, accessories is way less than 4k (only about 2500), less than lots of open guys are willing to spend on a new defiance action or scope alone. I actually think the 4k limitation is too high, because like you said, if you're going to sink 4k into a gun + glass, 5-6k isn't that big a reach. Especially if you drop another 2-3k into high end rings, bipods, arca rails, tripod, etc.

Any given open gun might be 5-6k (I suspect its more if you actually did the honest math, service fees, etc) but most jersey'd guys I talk to at matches have probably "tried" at least another 5k of options or have that much into other accessories like spotting scopes, tripods, rangefinders, 3-4 other barrels the didn't think shot well, etc. A $1k ruger precision or bergera B14 off gunbroker, $1k scope, $250 for harris bipod and scope rings is definitely a different class of gun but is good enough that your skills are limiting you at PRS, not the gun IMHO.

My experience seeing a couple of guys at each match is that, we're all newer competitive shooters and shooting something that matches the intent of production, not trying to game the system in some way. Plus, we still get to judge ourselves against % of open winner so we can see how well we're doing vs the big pond. I'm hopeful that with another year or two of production shooting my skills will start making me middle of the pack in open, maybe then I can justify building something custom.

I think I've only ever seen 1 production trophy even given out, most matches don't bother because there are only a few of us, and thats cool. Doesn't seem like such a horrible tax on PRS to try and get new shooters into it?

 

[One Shot One Thrill]

I think after 9 pages the only thing for sure is there is a market for accuracy.

Ray

I can't believe y'all are keeping this at the top but Thanks!!
I have been in business for over 35 years never forget you can never have all three of the following.
Good
Cheap
Fast

 

[Milo 2.0]

I can't believe y'all are keeping this at the top but Thanks!!
I have been in business for over 35 years never forget you can never have all three of the following.
Good
Cheap
Fast

And I give you amazon prime.

 

[One Shot One Thrill]

I have actually communicated with 1 shooter
That

And I give you amazon prime.

I guess that's about as close as it gets!
Lol

 

[Sheldon N]

Hey - I resemble that comment! (and its not that hard to figure out who I am as a result) As one of the 12 guys shooting production I actually appreciate the fact we get our own class. There are a few more than 12 shooters total (but I'd still guess less than 50), but they're usually not PRS registered for the $100. I really wish there were more of us it would make the tracking/competing aspect of it more fun within our little division.

I agree prod vs open is functionally no different, but I probably wouldn't have started shooting national matches if I had thought I needed to go sink 6k into a gun to not embarrass myself. The total amount I've got into my gun, glass, accessories is way less than 4k (only about 2500), less than lots of open guys are willing to spend on a new defiance action or scope alone. I actually think the 4k limitation is too high, because like you said, if you're going to sink 4k into a gun + glass, 5-6k isn't that big a reach. Especially if you drop another 2-3k into high end rings, bipods, arca rails, tripod, etc.

Any given open gun might be 5-6k (I suspect its more if you actually did the honest math, service fees, etc) but most jersey'd guys I talk to at matches have probably "tried" at least another 5k of options or have that much into other accessories like spotting scopes, tripods, rangefinders, 3-4 other barrels the didn't think shot well, etc. A $1k ruger precision or bergera B14 off gunbroker, $1k scope, $250 for harris bipod and scope rings is definitely a different class of gun but is good enough that your skills are limiting you at PRS, not the gun IMHO.

My experience seeing a couple of guys at each match is that, we're all newer competitive shooters and shooting something that matches the intent of production, not trying to game the system in some way. Plus, we still get to judge ourselves against % of open winner so we can see how well we're doing vs the big pond. I'm hopeful that with another year or two of production shooting my skills will start making me middle of the pack in open, maybe then I can justify building something custom.

I think I've only ever seen 1 production trophy even given out, most matches don't bother because there are only a few of us, and thats cool. Doesn't seem like such a horrible tax on PRS to try and get new shooters into it?

Awesome man, that's great and I'd agree that's what the division was intended for. Without rabbit trailing the thread too much, I wish the division was something more connected to a true entry level shooter and not just an arbitrary price point for the gun. Something more like rookie season only + price cap + an automatic "bump" out of the division for any top 10 overall PRS finish or any top 3 club match finish.

@One Shot One Thrill You're welcome for the free bump.

 

[daniel brothers]

If I told you that I had a secret for turning your wife into a Stepford Wife for only 250.00.... nobody would complain about the price or brow-beat me into wanting to know the secret, it would only be a matter of how quick could I get your wife fixed...LOL.

 

[DasherSmasher]

Awesome man, that's great and I'd agree that's what the division was intended for. Without rabbit trailing the thread too much, I wish the division was something more connected to a true entry level shooter and not just an arbitrary price point for the gun. Something more like rookie season only + price cap + an automatic "bump" out of the division for any top 10 overall PRS finish or any top 3 club match finish.

@One Shot One Thrill You're welcome for the free bump.

I just found some 10rd mags for my BAR

 

[Hengehold]

I use a load development process that is very similar to the OP. It usually takes me about 10-12 rds to find an initial tune window. However, I get 1” groups at 1000yds. Those are 1 shot groups . Here is my process:

1. Velocity ladder in .5 GR increments with Labradar. I will fire 1 or 2 shots at each powder charge. If I find a situation where the charge increased but velocity did not increase proportionally, I consider this a possible node. I usually end up with one node, occasionally 2 nodes to investigate. If no node is found I will change bullets or powder and try another ladder.

2. Shoot for groups. Seating depth is changed by about .025 for each group at 600 -1000yds. Looks like this.

10 shots-.015 jammed
10 shots-.005 jump
10 shots-.030 jump
10 shots-.050 jump

I don’t have access to a good practice range so I shoot groups at a match. Yes, I sacrifice the likelihood of winning a match to complete load development on a new barrel. It sounds like I am using about the same total round count (~50-60rds) as the OP to complete the load development process.

Now I will just lean back and let the checks roll in.

-T

 

[Raythemanroe]

I use a load development process that is very similar to the OP. It usually takes me about 10-12 rds to find an initial tune window. However, I get 1” groups at 1000yds. Those are 1 shot groups . Here is my process:

1. Velocity ladder in .5 GR increments with Labradar. I will fire 1 or 2 shots at each powder charge. If I find a situation where the charge increased but velocity did not increase proportionally, I consider this a possible node. I usually end up with one node, occasionally 2 nodes to investigate. If no node is found I will change bullets or powder and try another ladder.

2. Shoot for groups. Seating depth is changed by about .025 for each group at 600 -1000yds. Looks like this.

10 shots-.015 jammed
10 shots-.005 jump
10 shots-.030 jump
10 shots-.050 jump

I don’t have access to a good practice range so I shoot groups at a match. Yes, I sacrifice the likelihood of winning a match to complete load development on a new barrel. It sounds like I am using about the same total round count (~50-60rds) as the OP to complete the load development process.

Now I will just lean back and let the checks roll in.

-T

Interesting how you explained your process and didn't just expect everyone to fall in love with your claim.. Gotta be worth $500 a pop with the explanation

Ray

 

[Sheldon N]

However, I get 1” groups at 1000yds. Those are 1 shot groups

I've got you beat! I get 0.243" one shot groups at 1000 yards.

 

[seymour fish]

I can't believe y'all are keeping this at the top but Thanks!!
I have been in business for over 35 years never forget you can never have all three of the following.
Good
Cheap
Fast

Yep, you are stuck in step one of the paradigm shift. High probability a good number of shooters on here have developed similar methods that work. If they have gleaned anything from speed at target, it hasn’t been discussed, or perhaps didn’t add value. None have made bold claims at the $250 price point, which I took nerve. Free Bump !

 

[daniel brothers]

I live 3 hrs from Eric, so simply ship your rifle to me or to Eric, and I'll drive down there and put it through this test... my part is free... but add his fee to the rifle shipment.

 

[Davisduckcalls]

Wow, I just stumbled across this thread unfortunately. It never fails. Someone in the shooting community trying to help out other shooters, getting lashed. Sounds familiar, kinda like a popular gunsmith on this forum, probably the most helpful person on this forum, who has helped countless people improve their game and gets constant criticism while they secretly read his articles and take his advice. Come on! Nobody is making you pay the fee. To some people with kids, busy jobs, crazy wife, etc. with not much time to tune, or just lack of experience to achieve these results, it may be worth it. For you professionals, keep doing what your doing. If somebody takes his offer and achieves their results, great. If it's not for you, great, but dont bash every helpful post that is not YOUR method of tuning or shooting. There is more than one way to skin a cat, and that has been proven! Remember, everybody including myself, thought positive compensation was a hoax until they experienced it with their own eyes. Bottom line is I read post after post of people trying to help getting bashed in the ground because their methods are not your own. Just keep your crap to yourself. Lots of people, including myself, have benefited from articles here on AS and services provided from members of this forum. Keep attacking and deterring people from posting their results, methods, or any useful material and we all suffer. Except you few. The OP is a good friend of mine and is always eager to help anybody if he can. He has helped me tremendously. So dont paint him as a villian for trying to help. I am a nobody in this shooting world so I can't argue methods, but it sucks to see all these people trying to help constantly getting attacked.

 

[dsculley]

Along the lines of what Davisduckcalls said, David Tubb had a 1 or 2 digit member ID on one of the popular shooting forums. Every time he posted something, the "experts" on the site treated him badly, saying he did not know what he was talking about. That didn't last long, he simply quit the site.

 

[SouthGAnightmare]

I’m also a newbie to this game but enjoy the sport and most of the people in it more than any other sport I’ve ever competed. I’ve had very good success in my sport time in this sport and it’s mostly from great guys like this helping me. From coming by my shop and checking my press to helping with brass and seating problems.

Eric has always gone out of his way to help me get better. If it was in a shoot off against him or just practicing.

Heck he loaded my ammo for nationals in 2016 and made sure I had stuff ready for Montana this year.

I have shot my smallest groups ever with the tuning he did on my gun the week before nationals this year. And if I hadn’t messed up on my last target in hg would have been top 10 this year.

Y’all can doubt or hate but I’ll keep with it!

Thanks bud for all the help