180 ELD-Ms coming apart
- Thread starter STOMP442
- Start date
DaveTooley
Gold $$ Contributor
I think you have the perfect storm.
Velocity+twist = high RPM's
Velocity+ possibly a tight barrel = friction
Velocity+ twist+ tight bore= poof
Been there done that myself.
Slow them down to 3050 and see if they live.
STOMP442
Gold $$ Contributor
Problem is if the client wanted 3050 he would have built a 7 mag. He's wanting the extra performance the 28 provides over the standard 7 mag. I can understand that since he paid a pretty penny, but I also understand sometimes you can't get what you want.
DaveTooley
Gold $$ Contributor
One thing I've learned in almost 40 years of smithing.
Everything is a compromise. Extreme speed breaks parts.
Pre RUM days we used the 404 cases. The only heavy 7MM bullet that we could get and would stay together was a 178 from Cauterucio. Made on Sierra jackets. That was a 178 at 3400 FPS in a 1-9
Everything is a compromise. Extreme speed breaks parts.
Pre RUM days we used the 404 cases. The only heavy 7MM bullet that we could get and would stay together was a 178 from Cauterucio. Made on Sierra jackets. That was a 178 at 3400 FPS in a 1-9
I believe Dave T. has probably it the nail on its head. The only bullet I have lost in 19 years of F-Class shooting was a thin jacket 140 Berger VLD in a 6.5/284 case at 3030 fps at the end of a very fast 30 shot string. Switched to moly & then thick jackets and no more problems.
Reference the 7mm Berger 180 Hybrids I have fired over 7,000 in the last 5 years in my 7/270 WSM. 28-32” Bartlien barrels (also 1 Brux & 1 Broughton) at 2970 to 3030 fps and never lost a bullet. All shots in matches and 15-20 shot strings + sighters. If you lose Berger 180 Hybrids I don’t think the problem is the bullets.
Reference the 7mm Berger 180 Hybrids I have fired over 7,000 in the last 5 years in my 7/270 WSM. 28-32” Bartlien barrels (also 1 Brux & 1 Broughton) at 2970 to 3030 fps and never lost a bullet. All shots in matches and 15-20 shot strings + sighters. If you lose Berger 180 Hybrids I don’t think the problem is the bullets.
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... Just one, single Berger Hybrid lost to date, through an RSAUM. Naturally, I’d love to know if the result will be repeated “before” another match, but the only way to find out is to shoot some hot stings in heat. That particular 1.5” inch shank Krieger 5R is shooting lights out, and between its high cost, short life and long wait times, I can’t justify abusive research. I don’t doubt the lost bullet one bit on the 1,000 yard target that had to be called for a mark. I keep 4 Rsaum's for Fclass in use at once and bullet bursts are not limited to just one or two of them. ELD’s will print very nice 23 shot groups - when I fire 25 rounds. They all went to a highly dedicated .284 shooter. Lapua 180 have given me some great burst-free matches but when the rate of fire picks up at all its about 1-2 bullet problems a match. Berger, just 1 problem to date. These match bullets aren’t the problem, we target shooters like me just have to learn and master their limits, because they are as good now as they are ever going to get, and that’s damn good indeed.
That g-smith’s client above ought not expect so much from a match bullet, especially one of the more modestly priced ones. Match cartridges have not traditionally been anywhere near the fastest available for caliber. Match bullets are made for paper punching, emphasizing consistency, at a price where we can afford many thousands a year.
Now, Hornady, might do well to at least meet the established speed bar when considering a brand new offering, but I imagine it thought it had. Just Like it thought those prior tips were fine, too. By the much older designs that preceded the ELD are absolutely tougher to burst.
Jimmy James
Silver $$ Contributor
7mm 180 ELDM's are horrible, horrible bullets. Please do not buy them so the price will go down and I can buy them cheap. Seriously, I'm not driving them that hard (2800fps) in my 284Win F-open gun and they are tack drivers.
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... Larry, congratulations on winning the TSRA LR F-Open. I just saw your name, figuring this forum out. That was the match my daughter lost one bullet each day, one scenar and one hybrid. My twist rate is faster than it needs to be, 8 twist in several, and that is being addressed in the next generation of barrels. A factor perhaps.
LA50SHOOTER
Sworn To Protect The Constitution.
STOMP,
I'm also a 28 Nosler shooter, but I haven't shot anything but Berger 180's - both VLD's & the Hybrids, both with some pretty good results and at above 3200 fps (through a 1-9 twist 34" Benchmark 5 groove conventional rifled barrel). - If the owner doesn't want to even entertain using Berger's bullets then it seems to me that your being limited in what options are available. - I'd try the Sierra 183's & the new 197's and see if they can be made shoot. - I tried 1 box of 162 gr ELD-M's in a 280 Ackley Imp. and for the little bit that I tried them didn't have anything stellar to pursue in comparison to the 180 Berger's in the 280 A.I. - Possibly you could revisit the owner & see if he may want to reconsider trying Berger bullets based on the issues that are being experienced with the Hornady ELD's ? - I also tried Retumbo in the 28 Nosler and it didn't hold a candle to Reloder 33 in the accuracy department. - Not saying that your on the wrong path, just sharing the results that I've had.
Good Luck & Good Shooting
Yes, we shared a challenging wind in relay 1, at the end. That’s me, I was next after you I think on that string, which made me feel great about my score even though far off of your own.DavidJoe,
Did you shoot the end of Apr at the TSRA LR Championships? Just trying to place you.
I hate to suggest this but as a past crossfire champion, could that 1 Berger have gone on another target
We all wondered if she could have crossfired (my daughter had the issues that match) but she was pretty tightly locked in on a Seb Max. And it was one bullet each day, the Berger First day and a Lapua day two.
I had no problems with them in my .284’s. The aspiration is settling on a single bullet for mid range and longe range, respectively shooting a .284 Win and RSAUM.
David, That 1-8" twist maybe part of your problem. Have you measure the twist? I had some button rifled ones that were supposed to be 1-8" but were 1-8.5". Caused me some stability problems with 115's.
I have always used 1-9" in my 7's (Shehane, .284 Win & 7-270 WSM), you are turning them 12.5% more than I. Also you are pushing them pretty darn fast for a 7 RSAUM -2990fps?
I have always used 1-9" in my 7's (Shehane, .284 Win & 7-270 WSM), you are turning them 12.5% more than I. Also you are pushing them pretty darn fast for a 7 RSAUM -2990fps?
David I don't care who you are or what rest you are using it is possible to move the rear bag enough if you move your body around on the firing point for any reason and then forget to check your # board. Just saying....been there done that!
1:9 twist is the next batch that will be coming from Brux. Those 8 twist barrels were intended for 195’s, but 180’s do edge them out in observed accuracy, and especially factoring in barrel life, 180’s lead. So 180’s are being shot through them until they expire. Berger has vacillated some about ideal twist for 180’s but as 9.35 sufficed in my original .284’s, years back, I’m certain 9 is easily sufficient in the Saum, which theoretically could get by with less than a .284.
And it should greatly reduce centrifugal force excerted on jackets. 2,990 is fast, a gift from Alliant, a brand which many ppl don’t really consider. It’s possible without adverse pressure signs with 63.0 grains Reloader 25. Of course, the low of peak pressure on the brass and the coolish throat, while good for the barrel and brass, don’t change fact that the bullet is shoved hard to that high V through a barrel that is hot down to the muzzle, and wants to fly apart. I’ve not personally ever lost a Berger, and don’t shoot as fast as my daughter, having already learned my lesson.
With the slower twist, I won’t increase the charge. That would negate the relief I’m trying to give the bullets.
And it should greatly reduce centrifugal force excerted on jackets. 2,990 is fast, a gift from Alliant, a brand which many ppl don’t really consider. It’s possible without adverse pressure signs with 63.0 grains Reloader 25. Of course, the low of peak pressure on the brass and the coolish throat, while good for the barrel and brass, don’t change fact that the bullet is shoved hard to that high V through a barrel that is hot down to the muzzle, and wants to fly apart. I’ve not personally ever lost a Berger, and don’t shoot as fast as my daughter, having already learned my lesson.
With the slower twist, I won’t increase the charge. That would negate the relief I’m trying to give the bullets.
True, all of that is. I’ve done it, and also caught myself scoping a different target with my finger on trigger.
All we know for sure is that no one pulled down a different target, or marked shots for a crossfire, nor was there any chattering amongst shooters, and she says she was on hers.
All we know for sure is that no one pulled down a different target, or marked shots for a crossfire, nor was there any chattering amongst shooters, and she says she was on hers.
What twist are you running in your rifle?? I have a 1-9 and they shot really well to 500yds but seemed to open up at 800 on out to 1000. My 162s would out shoot them. I only tried them on the one occasion at 800+ and after talking to my smith he thought I may be on the edge of stability is why the seemed to open up further on out. I am wondering if I need to give up on them or buy another box and give the a try again at longer ranges...
I think the eldx has a thicker jacket and can handle it better at those velocities.
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