147 ELD coming apart

[FrankG]

In preparing to built a rifle, I have been following most all the threads here about the 6.5. Almost all reports of the 147 Hornady and 150 Sierra bullets coming apart are being shot from fast twist (1-7.5 or faster) conventional 4 groove cut rifled barrels. More so noted as the barrels get more use on them. Guys shooting the 5r, canted or 6 groove don't seem to see them blow up. Also it shows up more in F-class type shooting as the barrels heat (and foul) up around the 15+ shot mark in a string. If you are just shooting 5 or 10 shot groups during load development you may not see blow ups until a match.

The style of rifling/number of grooves for the most part (again for the most part) will have nothing to do with it or it being cut rifled barrels.

I do feel the 5R style rifling the odd number of lands and grooves not opposing one another vs. a even groove barrel will help fight bullet failure as it will distort and upset the bullet jacket less. Bullet failure is a higher problem in calibers under 6.5mm.

That being said.....to the next post....

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels

 

[FrankG]

First off if anyone is having a problem with any type of a product you have to get a hold of the manufacturer and bring it to they're attention and give them a chance to figure out what is going on if there is a problem to begin with. If you don't it isn't fair to the manufacturer.

I'll also say this....over the years I've had bullet failure problems with other makes/brands of bullets. If anyone thinks this maker or that maker is flat out better than one or the other and it will never happen to brand X.....well guess again.

As has been pointed out cleaning and care of the rifle and barrel is another area of concern. Damage to the barrel from cleaning can be a problem. This could have a impact on bullet failure. As well as damage to the crown.

If the barrel came from the barrel maker with damage to the rifling to begin with that can be the problem. If it's in question have the barrel looked at by a good smith and or the barrel maker. Won't hurt.

What are the bore and groove dimensions of the barrel? Not just in regards to damage during the manufacturing process but I've seen plenty of barrels where the bore and or groove or both are undersize. This can cause a problem as well.

Round count on the barrel? As the round count goes up the throat is going to get rough and will beat the bullets up more. No way around it and again in the smaller calibers with a thinner style match bullet jacket and hi twist rates and factor in possibly high velocities and or high pressures. You can have multiple things going on and creating a problem but not the problem you think it really is.

Gunsmithing issues? Possible. If the chamber reamer cut the throat and left the finish really rough or with burrs in it etc....it can be beating up the bullet more as well.

Lots of variables out there!

Later, Frank

 

[STOMP442]

I just got notice from Hornady today that they received my bullets. No word yet on if there is anything wrong with them.

 

[FrankG]

Going back to my first post and the quote about guys having problems with the Sierra 150 and the Hornady 147 in fast twist barrels and blowing up bullets.

I’ve only shot my new 6.5cm out to 430 yards. Hopefully next week I’ll stretch it’s legs out to a 1k.

I’ve shot box 140gr. Amax ammo and bullets and the 150smk bullets out of my rifle and my twist rate is 1-6.75 and velocity is at 2700fps out of a 23” barrel. Probably faster than anyone else has on they’re gun currently twist rate wise. I’ve had zero failures and accuracy is a hammer. The gun will hold 1/3 moa or smaller out to 430 yards. I’ve even shot the Warner Flatline bullets but those are solids and not conventional jacketed bullets.

We’ve made ammunition test barrels in twists as fast as 1-6 for 6.5mm. Haven’t heard of any problems.

All of the barrels we make the Gov’t in 6.5mm and for the AMU....they are getting straight 1-7 twist rate barrels for a few years now. Haven’t heard a peep on any problems as far as bullet failures go. One of they’re standard bullets they shoot is a 136gr. Which will fly in a 1-8.5 twist barrel with no problems.

Later, Frank

 

[FrankG]

I just got notice from Hornady today that they received my bullets. No word yet on if there is anything wrong with them.

The guys at Hornady are stand up. Give them a chance to do some testing and get back to ya.

 

[JBT47]

Going back to my first post and the quote about guys having problems with the Sierra 150 and the Hornady 147 in fast twist barrels and blowing up bullets.

I’ve only shot my new 6.5cm out to 430 yards. Hopefully next week I’ll stretch it’s legs out to a 1k.

I’ve shot box 140gr. Amax ammo and bullets and the 150smk bullets out of my rifle and my twist rate is 1-6.75 and velocity is at 2700fps out of a 23” barrel. Probably faster than anyone else has on they’re gun currently twist rate wise. I’ve had zero failures and accuracy is a hammer. The gun will hold 1/3 moa or smaller out to 430 yards. I’ve even shot the Warner Flatline bullets but those are solids and not conventional jacketed bullets.

We’ve made ammunition test barrels in twists as fast as 1-6 for 6.5mm. Haven’t heard of any problems.

All of the barrels we make the Gov’t in 6.5mm and for the AMU....they are getting straight 1-7 twist rate barrels for a few years now. Haven’t heard a peep on any problems as far as bullet failures go. One of they’re standard bullets they shoot is a 136gr. Which will fly in a 1-8.5 twist barrel with no problems.

Later, Frank

Frank, is your 1-6.75” twist a 5R?

 

[rhovee]

let me know if you sell them ill give ya a blow-out price i would like to a give them a try

I have about (450) 147 grain ELDM i don't need anymore. I sold me 6.5...

 

[eric32]

i would but i think, maybe ,somehow, just bought a AI MK3.

 

[Milo 2.0]

I must really come from a different world. If an axle falls off my new Chevy pickup in under 1000 miles, it's going back, knowing full well I'm not getting a new replacement.
The range I develop loads at is 18 miles from my house, so 36 miles round trip. So let's say, it's a new major brand barrel, competent smith, I've cleaned my rifle 3 times in the first 150 rds which I usually will do, now if I make 4-5 trips developing a load, and now my bullets start coming apart, the bullets are NOT going back to the maker. I will sell them or give them away to someone who thinks they want to combat the BS.
I don't need to hear if the jackets were thinner on this lot, or if the tips were melting<kills me. The fact of the matter is the Trust Has Been Broken and I don't give 2 shits what you're going to do to make it right, I'm not shooting your product, it's that simple.

 

[FrankG]

Frank, is your 1-6.75” twist a 5R?

Yes it's a 5R.

We've made 4 groove and 5R and 6 groove accuracy and pressure test barrels for ammo and bullet makers and I'll stay with this for 6.5's for now. One bullet maker and I won't say who it is as I didn't ask for permission at this time but when they we're designing and testing they're new bullet and they encountered bullet failures they went and redesigned the bullet and made the jacket heavier. They ordered from us 1-6 twist barrels to really beat the bullets up and no failures. So go figure.

 

[FrankG]

I've only put this out there one time or two in the past when something like this has come up. So I figured this is a good one to add it to.

The attached picture is from a 7mm/.284win. F class barrel. When the picture was taken the barrel had 800 rounds on it. The barrel started to suffer accuracy problems at 100 rounds and went down from there.

The barrel was cleaned with an abrasive/paste type cleaner and a brush after every 25 rounds fired . Instead of the barrel measuring .277 x .284 it now measures .279" x .2855". The lands because they stick up take the most damage/beating.

So yes cleaning damage to the barrel can also have an effect on bullets blowing up.

You can see how the brush was trying to rotate with the twist of the rifling. I've seen damage like this in as little as 110 rounds. That was a 6.5mm barrel. The shooter opened up the bore +.001" in that 110 rounds. He was using an abrasive cleaner as well and a different brand than the picture of the 7mm barrel.

Later, Frank

 

[Sheldon N]

One of my buddies had some of these 147 bullets blow up on him too at a PRS match a couple weeks ago, same lot number as you guys are discussing.

 

[Brians356]

I've only put this out there one time or two in the past when something like this has come up. So I figured this is a good one to add it to.

The attached picture is from a 7mm/.284win. F class barrel. When the picture was taken the barrel had 800 rounds on it. The barrel started to suffer accuracy problems at 100 rounds and went down from there.

The barrel was cleaned with an abrasive/paste type cleaner and a brush after every 25 rounds fired . Instead of the barrel measuring .277 x .284 it now measures .279" x .2855". The lands because they stick up take the most damage/beating.

So yes cleaning damage to the barrel can also have an effect on bullets blowing up.

You can see how the brush was trying to rotate with the twist of the rifling. I've seen damage like this in as little as 110 rounds. That was a 6.5mm barrel. The shooter opened up the bore +.001" in that 110 rounds. He was using an abrasive cleaner as well and a different brand than the picture of the 7mm barrel.

Later, Frank

Hmmm. I've only used Corbin paste as an "abrasive" cleaner, but I assumed other brands would also stipulate using their version on a patch, not a bronze brush! That seems stupid on its face. Corbin recommends using an undersize brush to support the patch, but I chose to eliminate any chance of bristles poking through by instead wrapping the patch around a Parker-Hale jag. There's no chance in Hades for a patch so presented to plow furrows like that in the bore. And as fine as the particles are in Corbin et al, little chance to open a bore by thousandths (!) with an occasional single short-stroked pass to dislodge tenacious crud or copper.
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[sbhooper]

If there is a problem with these bullets, then Hornady needs to know. All bullets have some failures from time to time. Trashing Hornady because of one lot of bad bullets-if they are-is like bashing an auto brand because one vehicle had a bad wiring harness. Let Hornady try to figure out the problem, so that others do not have to worry about it.

I like the 147s, personally.

Why would anyone scour a barrel with abrasive paste? Educate me here.

 

[Brians356]

Why would anyone scour a barrel with abrasive paste? Educate me here.

Not sure you really want the education. But you might ask Brownell's, or the many thousands who buy J-B Bore Compound from them.

Quote:

The original, time-proven formula developed by Jim Brobst and produced under exclusive license. J-B has been getting burned-on, caked-in powder residue and copper jacket fouling out of gun barrels since the 1960’s, and hasn’t damaged an inch of rifling yet. Today, J-B once again proves itself a champion by the way it easily cleans the dirtiest, moly-fouled barrels. A unique combination of ingredients and a one-of-kind, multi-step mixing process give J-B its special characteristics. They work together to cushion the abrasive action; the soft paste liquifies as you use it, then wipes out of the bore easily. The non-embedding feature means there’s no abrasive residue left behind which might keep "cutting" after you’ve finished cleaning. J-B has been a favorite on gunsmiths’ benches for years, ...

PS Here's Corbin's product, what I use:




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[Park ranger]

If there is a problem with these bullets, then Hornady needs to know. All bullets have some failures from time to time. Trashing Hornady because of one lot of bad bullets-if they are-is like bashing an auto brand because one vehicle had a bad wiring harness. Let Hornady try to figure out the problem, so that others do not have to worry about it.

I like the 147s, personally.

Why would anyone scour a barrel with abrasive paste? Educate me here.

We have been reporting different lot numbers, different caliber, different barrels, etc. if red box is working for you great. I wanted them to, but they didn’t. I don’t think it’s up to me to pay for bullets and then not get paid to be on the R&D team. It’s my right to break up with them and not listen to the “ I’ll promise I’ll change” line.

 

[FrankG]

If there is a problem with these bullets, then Hornady needs to know. All bullets have some failures from time to time. Trashing Hornady because of one lot of bad bullets-if they are-is like bashing an auto brand because one vehicle had a bad wiring harness. Let Hornady try to figure out the problem, so that others do not have to worry about it.

I like the 147s, personally.

Why would anyone scour a barrel with abrasive paste? Educate me here.

For one some shooters tend to over clean. Why? Some are worried about the carbon ring build up the throat area. Yes the carbon ring and or carbon fouling can cause accuracy issues. First question you have to ask yourself what is your accuracy requirement?

While your asking why......have also had problems with guys putting steel wool or an emery type cloth on the end of a wooden shaft and chucking it up in a drill to get the carbon ring out. Then we get blamed for bad steel after they wreck the throat/damage the barrel and when that wasn't the case the gunsmith got blamed for using a dull chamber reamer. Go figure!

 

[284winner]

For one some shooters tend to over clean. Why? Some are worried about the carbon ring build up the throat area. Yes the carbon ring and or carbon fouling can cause accuracy issues. First question you have to ask yourself what is your accuracy requirement?

While your asking why......have also had problems with guys putting steel wool or an emery type cloth on the end of a wooden shaft and chucking it up in a drill to get the carbon ring out. Then we get blamed for bad steel after they wreck the throat/damage the barrel and when that wasn't the case the gunsmith got blamed for using a dull chamber reamer. Go figure!

People put more thought into something that just requires a little common sense. Then again, some don't put any thought into it. Cleaning is one of the big ones.

 

[sbhooper]

Barrel makers love people that spend lots of time scrubbing barrels.

 

[Area51]

This is getting so good,,,,,,,
Kinda like the really nasty cactus when your lost and thirsty in the desert.

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