1 MOA Guarantee

[mauser284]

Well the “ is or was” certainly carry’s more weight.

Well I do not know his current status with the American Bar Association and do not care. He covers some of the warranty contractual points which is where his credentials apply. A warranty binds a party to perform in a given way under given circumstances. I think this is relevant since few research this or discus it.

If you watched the video he opens pretty quickly with this. I would think the connection would be fairly straight forward. A lot of people have fairly negative experience with warranty work as it relates to accuracy.

 

[mauser284]

Classic! Thanks for the laugh!

 

[mauser284]

I bought a Christensen Arms MPR last year in .308 and could not get it to shoot under 2" at 100 yards with any factory ammo or even hand loads. After some back and forth with CA they finally sent me an RA and it just got a new barrel, bolt and brake installed, here are the first 5 groups shot out of it with Federal GMM 168 SMK's...
View attachment 1461457 View attachment 1461458 View attachment 1461459 View attachment 1461460 View attachment 1461461

Fantastic you had a good experience!

 

[DShortt]

Well I do not know his current status with the American Bar Association and do not care. He covers some of the warranty contractual points which is where his credentials apply. A warranty binds a party to perform in a given way under given circumstances. I think this is relevant since few research this or discus it.

If you watched the video he opens pretty quickly with this. I would think the connection would be fairly straight forward. A lot of people have fairly negative experience with warranty work as it relates to accuracy.

Yes. I happen to be one of those people. There is a certain brand of rifle I'll never purchase again despite it's popularity. It starts with an S.

 

[Bottom Fodder]

Would a rifles with a factory trigger that been adjust/ polished after it left the factory no longer be considered a factory rifle

 

[mauser284]

isn’t the factor the factory ammo? I have a Tikka that shoots .5 moa with handloads. I have never even bothered to try it with FGMM. It’s too damn expensive and is not as good as my handloads.

Yes these guarantee's are with "factory ammo, factory match grade ammo". If you actually read most factory produced rifles owners manuals they almost always warn you not to fire reloaded ammo in their product!

 

[mauser284]

Yes. I happen to be one of those people. There is a certain brand of rifle I'll never purchase again despite it's popularity. It starts with an S.

We all have an experience that is similar with something maybe not a refile.

 

[jds holler]

I hear guys talking about rifles they've just bought that do it, and I think "welllll, maybe", because I've had a couple that sometimes would. But when I hear that they don't reload, I just figure they're full of crap.

Several years ago, I put out a challenge on another forum, asking for guys to honestly prove up that they could set a pop/beer can at 200 yds, and nail it with their first shot. A lot of guys said that I'd soon be hearing from them, --- and I never did. jd

 

[mauser284]

I have owned several factory Savages as deer hunting rifles. They all shot 1moa or better.

The Indy factory Savage I have left is a bmag. It will shoot .5 moa.

I have never seen any brand of mass produced rifle that would shoot MOA or Sub-MOA on command with random factory ammo!

I have seen with my own eye's plenty of 1/4 MOA rifles that are custom built and shooting custom loaded ammo. We are also not talking about 1 random rifle.


The real point though is who is honoring the warranty/guarantee of 1MOA or Sub-MOA and who is not? How hard is it to get companies to stand behind their warranty/guarantee? What penalties await the owner? What recourse does the owner have if his rifle is returned as it was shipped to the company and they claim it is within specifications?


So sound off if you have had a fantastic outcome from a companies warranty of their product on accuracy grounds! I have never sent a rifle off for warranty work in my life.

If you have had a bad experience with a company not warranting their rifle for accuracy sound off!

How many shots need to be fired to qualify the rifle?

So again lets stay task and focus on who is doing a good job and who is blowing smoke!

Cheers!!!

 

[mauser284]

I have quite a few friends that have rifles that will shoot sub MOA. Although when I go shooting with them they shoot closer to 2 MOA. One friend carries around a wallet group that is appx 1/2 MOA I 've tried to explain to him that those three shots are all fliers that just randomly grouped like that. Regular factory rifles with factory ammo lends me to side with the video, although I am certain that there a good percentage of factory rifles that are capable of MOA but with good hand loads that the rifle likes. JMO

I agree that when a company is churning out 10,000+ rifles a year accuracy will fall on a fairly regular probably not perfect bell curve. You will have some fantastic shooters, some really terrible shooters and most will be ok or average shooters. My point is that the internet meme or trope of the Sub MOA factory rifle with factory ammo is over represented! If you offered people $50 at the range shooting a factory stock rifle with factory ammo if they could shoot MOA let alone Sub-MOA on command it can't be done often!

I wanted to know what companies are doing a good job at warranty work for accuracy issues and which ones are not!!!

 

[mauser284]

And you believe a attorney. They take drama classes to learn how to play the people/jury in court rooms.

I clarified this in a another response. It was in reference to some of the warranty stipulations he went over nothing to do with his shooting skill or SME on firearms!

 

[Ned Ludd]

A thread-appropriate take on the old game show, "Concentration":




-

 

[DShortt]

I have never seen any brand of mass produced rifle that would shoot MOA or Sub-MOA on command with random factory ammo!

I have seen with my own eye's plenty of 1/4 MOA rifles that are custom built and shooting custom loaded ammo. We are also not talking about 1 random rifle.


The real point though is who is honoring the warranty/guarantee of 1MOA or Sub-MOA and who is not? How hard is it to get companies to stand behind their warranty/guarantee? What penalties await the owner? What recourse does the owner have if his rifle is returned as it was shipped to the company and they claim it is within specifications?


So sound off if you have had a fantastic outcome from a companies warranty of their product on accuracy grounds! I have never sent a rifle off for warranty work in my life.

If you have had a bad experience with a company not warranting their rifle for accuracy sound off!

How many shots need to be fired to qualify the rifle?

So again lets stay task and focus on who is doing a good job and who is blowing smoke!

Cheers!!!

I'll start. Had a Savage Model 10 in .308. Best I can describe it would be consistently inconsistent. Finally checked the bore and it was .0015" larger at the muzzle than the chamber end. Contacted them and sent it back per their instructions. Came back with a matte finish barrel when the receiver was not. Also this barrel was .002" larger at the muzzle. Contacted them again and sent it back a second time. When I got it back it had a gloss blued barrel that was still .002" larger at the muzzle than the chamber and a short note stating in met their accuracy standards. No test target or any indication of how that was determined. NNeedless to say it didn't meet my expectations and I'll never buy another. Random fliers was the norm and not the exception.

And people worship Savage.

 

[mauser284]

Actually I stay away from any range in October.
Sort of like going to a boat ramp on a Saturday morning. But with a huge fear factor figured in.

Boat ramp on Sat. is nothing try going to a commercial gym after January 1!

 

[mauser284]

My 1st Gen RPR chambered in .243 Win was still averaging well under one moa with the throat shot out before I barrel swapped the factory barrel out for one of Urban Rifleman’s barrels chambered in 6XC. I don’t think I ever fired a factory round it it though.

Since the RPR comes from Ruger's Custom Shop I do not think I would consider that a mass produced rifle. Just like Savages F rifles. Any of Savages rifles that come blue printed from the Savage are not at all factory mass produced guns since they do not blue print or build every rifle to that standard. At that point it is a semi-custom rifle since they are doing things that are not standard to the entire production line!

 

[mauser284]

I'll start. Had a Savage Model 10 in .308. Best I can describe it would be consistently inconsistent. Finally checked the bore and it was .0015" larger at the muzzle than the chamber end. Contacted them and sent it back per their instructions. Came back with a matte finish barrel when the receiver was not. Also this barrel was .002" larger at the muzzle. Contacted them again and sent it back a second time. When I got it back it had a gloss blued barrel that was still .002" larger at the muzzle than the chamber and a short note stating in met their accuracy standards. Needless to say it didn't meet mine and I'll never buy another. Random fliers was the norm and not the exception.

And people worship Savage.

I do not worship Savage at all I am an old man and only just bought a Savage becasue I got it CHEAP during Covid! I did not shoot it stock and it is still at the gunsmith. I bought it with the intent to put blueprint the action and have a match grade barrel installed. I still have the unfired factory barrel. I have two Savages. I own a Savage 12 and a Muddy Girl Axis again price was right! In fact I got my first AR during Covid-19 that first 6-12 months people where practically paying you to take their rifle. You could not buy seeds or paint or lumber but rifles where for sale!

I am more a Winchester Model 70, Sako, Mauser, Browning, Howa,Mannlicher-Schonauer, Tikka, Marlin kind of guy. That said I have purchased Savages, Mavericks and a Thomsponson during Covid-19 lockdowns and such due entirely to insanely low prices during first 6months to 12 months of Covid-19. Hard to go wrong when your getting center fire rifles for $200 or less out the door. Gunsmithing and barrel cost more than the rifles did!

I am just wondering about who is doing a good job and who is doing a bad job honoring warranty/guarantee as it relates to accuracy.

I have pretty consistently on this sight and others seen that Savage and Mossberg not so hot for honoring their accuracy guarantee or any warranty repair. In terms of fixing the actual problem with a good outcome and doing so in a timely manner. Even when parts where shipped for free they often sent the wrong part or only some of the parts or it took forever for turn around!

 

[mauser284]

If I can use my ammo with my factory rifle, I will 100% take you up on this

The rifle is a custom shop RPR and it's an MOA or less every time out.

"Custom Shop" says it all! I have heard nothing but good things about the RPR online in terms of accuracy! I am sure they let some lemons out the doors but since it is not a line item it is a "custom shop" item I am sure they release a lot less lemons.

If you had the chance to shoot a Custom Shop Colt of S&W during the 1980's and 1990's they where miles apart from the standard mass produced offerings. The same was true of Remington and Winchester back when they had true "custom shop's". The old S&W custom shop revolvers where well worth the wait and the extra money!

 

[mauser284]

Would a rifles with a factory trigger that been adjust/ polished after it left the factory no longer be considered a factory rifle

That is a bit gray......Stoning and polishing reflect additional machine work where simple adjusting the trigger as it left the factory is part of the functionality designed into the trigger.

I would allow it if I was the judge and jury but technically any machining to alter parts from how they came would be a no-no. If not nothing would stop you from taking off a factory barrel that has been poorly chamber or poorly crowned so too deep, too much free bore etc...remachining it and calling it a factory rifle. It shot 3 MOA and by remachining the barrel it now shoots 1/2 MOA etc....

Imagine if I sent my sons Remington 700 off to Gre-Tan for basic blueprinting then cheery picked through 100 Remington take off barrels and presented it for factory rifle in Silhouette. Technically it is a factory rifle with all factory parts even if the parts have been remachined and cherry picked. Would that meet the letter of the law and the spirit of the law? If I did all of the work myself would it make it any better?

I think the main thing is who honors their warranty and or guarantee for accuracy and how hard is it to get it honored? How often is it honored?

It is not about who has a factory rifle that meets the accuracy claim it is how have you been treated when you tried to get help with a rifle that did not meet the claim?!?!?

 

[Flouncer]

That's 3. You said 10.

??? You confused yourself.

I'll start. Had a Savage Model 10 in .308. Best I can describe it would be consistently inconsistent. Finally checked the bore and it was .0015" larger at the muzzle than the chamber end. Contacted them and sent it back per their instructions. Came back with a matte finish barrel when the receiver was not. Also this barrel was .002" larger at the muzzle. Contacted them again and sent it back a second time. When I got it back it had a gloss blued barrel that was still .002" larger at the muzzle than the chamber and a short note stating in met their accuracy standards. No test target or any indication of how that was determined. NNeedless to say it didn't meet my expectations and I'll never buy another. Random fliers was the norm and not the exception.

And people worship Savage.

That's called Savage worship. And they wear capes. Dance around fires, that kind of thing.

 

[JB10]

I bought a Christensen Arms MPR last year in .308 and could not get it to shoot under 2" at 100 yards with any factory ammo or even hand loads. After some back and forth with CA they finally sent me an RA and it just got a new barrel, bolt and brake installed, here are the first 5 groups shot out of it with Federal GMM 168 SMK's...
View attachment 1461457 View attachment 1461458 View attachment 1461459 View attachment 1461460 View attachment 1461461

My CA took just over 100 rounds to get consistent grouping. Now at 200 yards i can repeat 3/4 inch 3 shot groups every time i take it out. I was not happy with it untill it settled down. Talked to many CA owners with same issues. Got to be checking it again in a few months. Daughter has an elk tag this novermer and going to try it on her hunt.