1 MOA Guarantee

[M-61]

To put this in its proper perspective, our vice president is a lawyer. Think about that for a minute.

What I thought about for a minute or more actually was your use of the word ‘our’.
‘Our’ implies some sort of unified group or club, something along those lines.
There is nothing ‘our’ about me and the VP.

 

[Fairchaser]

If he zeroes out his caliper and doesn’t measure center to center, he’s not getting an accurate measurement. He should measure a bullet and then zero his caliper and go outside edge to outside edge. Just saying.

 

[varmintshooter]

Most of my rifles have never seen factory ammo so I guess I'm out of luck. 1 MOA was never a problem with any of my Coopers or Savages with 1 exception, a Savage M12 6mm BR and that one went away.

 

[209jones]

I like his 50.00 prize, I've seen that type of contest a few times at an archery range I used to frequent, absolutely hilarious to watch, the guy that set it up made money off the best shots in the group of people that hung there. Simple rule, 5.00 to enter, 10 shots inside the 9 ring on an archery target at 20 yds, touching the inside of the 9 ring was out, had to be cleanly in, think that is a 3" circle. Do it and win the pot, some days it hit 100.00+. Amazing what nerves can do to people.
There was another fella that rolled up 20.00 or 50.00 and a few times 100.00, size of a cigarette, stuffed them in the butt, hit it, it's yours, @ 20yds. Took a lot of people a lot of shots.
I had a 400 yd range at a farm, asked guys to sit on their butts and hit a an 18" Coors target at 300yds, humbled a lot of people who bragged about 400yd offhand shots. No money involved, just sit and shoot 300yds. Had likely 40-50 people try it, maybe 7-8 could hit that 18" ring steadily, even some of them had a miss on first shot.
I've yet to shoot a gun, that didn't shoot a group over 1MOA with factory ammo somewhere, in a string of 30-40 shots. but, had and have some that will AVERAGE under 1MOA, some under 3/4MOA, but, even they shoot or shot MOA+ groups here and there.

 

[Mark W]

Since the RPR comes from Ruger's Custom Shop I do not think I would consider that a mass produced rifle. Just like Savages F rifles. Any of Savages rifles that come blue printed from the Savage are not at all factory mass produced guns since they do not blue print or build every rifle to that standard. At that point it is a semi-custom rifle since they are doing things that are not standard to the entire production line!

You have your facts confused. The custom shop RPRs only became available in the last couple of years and they cost substantially more than a regular factory rifle.

My rifle was standard factory production which is all that was offered at the time.

 

[SKWERLZ]

I have been saying this for some time. Since this gentleman is or was an attorney I thought it might carry more weight than my rants about liars and never seeing a factory rifle with factory ammo achieve this at the range or in competition! Cheer's

Hunter Biden is an attorney.

Personally,,,,,my guns shoot 1/2 MRAD all day

 

[SBS]

My CA took just over 100 rounds to get consistent grouping. Now at 200 yards i can repeat 3/4 inch 3 shot groups every time i take it out. I was not happy with it untill it settled down. Talked to many CA owners with same issues. Got to be checking it again in a few months. Daughter has an elk tag this novermer and going to try it on her hunt.

This reminds me of some aftermarket barrels years ago. Didn't get best accuracy until fired 100 or more rounds. Obviously, CA is not using the best barrels available -- even though they charge enough to do so. Local guy could only get 1 1/2 MOA out of his with best handloads. Sent it back, CA said bad crown, replaced barrel (why not just recrown it?). Barrel now shoots 1 MOA with best handloads. Guess there's a reason why we see CA take-off barrels on the market. They are not the first small production company to promote their rifles as "custom" quality, but they've sure been successful at selling them.

 

[M-61]

Hunter Biden is an attorney.

Maybe falling into the ‘was an attorney’ category.
Better than his 30 day naval career.

 

[dgeesaman]

Treat it like the boat ramp. Stay a safe distance back in a comfortable spot and just take in the shenanigans.

There is no safe distance to take in unsafe gun handling. Maybe with bulletproof glass.

To the original topic, a 1moa guarantee can exist but it’s up to you the customer relying on the good will of the manufacturer to honor it. I’m helping a friend with a new Bergara HMR that has some kind of accuracy guarantee and we are nearly ready to send it back. Calling out a manufacturer on the internet would be some defense if they won’t honor it but that reaches a very limited part of their customer base.

The only true accuracy guarantee I can think of is when a gunsmith offers it and breaks in the barrel, develops a load, and replaces the barrel again if necessary. It’s not cheap or fast. Accuflite offered this on Sako rebarrel jobs, not sure they still do.

 

[Dave M.]

Most of my rifles have never seen factory ammo so I guess I'm out of luck. 1 MOA was never a problem with any of my Coopers or Savages with 1 exception, a Savage M12 6mm BR and that one went away.

Or do what 99.999% of people do and just measure the group outside to outside of the farthest spread and subtract the bullet diameter. If the overall diameter of your bullet is off by more than .0005” I’d be shocked. Don’t make it harder than it is. Pretty sure most of the guys that have made it to page 4 of this thread understand how to measure a 5 shot group size.
D

 

[Eagle Six]

I bought only two factory new run of mill centerfire bolt rifles in the past 30 years. A Remington 700 Police 308 and a Savage 110 LA 308. They both printed sub MOA 3 and 5 round groups with Fed GMM ammunition, after a few rounds of break in, most of the time, depending on my cleaning. I guess that is lucky me. And, this was way back before they started the 1 MOA guarantee BS. They both printed sub .5 MOA most of the time, sub MOA all the time after a few minor changes and hand loads.

Interesting all the controversy from a Youtube producer publishing drama for a hit count on his channel. I guest that makes him an expert.

My interest isn't what I can shoot some of the time, or even most of the time, rather every time. If I was to carry a bragging group in my wallet it would be the worse I have shot with a particular gun/ammunition, not a cherry picked 3 round best, because that better represents what I can shoot on demand.

I would consider the two rifles I mention above to be the exception. Some kind of factory precision guarantee would mean little to me if I am ever in the market for a factory gun.

 

[FNSafari]

I thought a "group" was 10 shots.

Well, it might be. In IBS or NBRSA group benchrest shooting 10 shots per group are often the norm in the unlimited class (rail guns) but in the light, heavy, sporter, an agg, say a 100 yard shoot, is five 5 shot groups for record. Group matches are shot with moving backers so that there is NO chance someone mis-counts the number of shots they have taken...as in 3 or 4 or even 1. Wins are normally in the .1800" to .2200" at 100 yds. Try that with your hunting rifle.

Getting back to the video, which I thought was very well done, the interesting item was the first shot placement from a cold barrel vs. where the rest of the group formed. That is a super important thing to know, especially if you are shooting at questionable or un-ethical distances.

One final, I didn't see wind flags in his video. I guess that is probably the right way to do things cause you have none in the hunting field, other than grass or tree branches showing direction. Lots of hunters make a big mistake in not knowing the effects of wind drift on their POI. My local range has members who tout the accuracy of their hunting rifles, but not a one shows up for our factory shoots.....200 yd IBS hunter target at 100 yds....a 1" ten ring. Five shots on five targets.

 

[jdh47]

These discussions are always fun to read.

 

[Bottom Fodder]

These discussions are always fun to read.

Yep And we already got 5 pages of them and not slowing down

 

[Dimner]

Some people just gotta argue

 

[wildcatter]

I don't understand anyone accepting 1 moa accuracy from a hunting centerfire rifle? I don't understand anyone worrying about a 5 shot group for any hunting gun. As 5 shots are only relevant in target shooting

I have not used a factory per say rifle for anything in decades! Even the finest benefit from a bedding job, and a recrown. For hunting my criteria is based on first shot 60% of my concern, and the first three are all I care about. I have never killed anything while in the field hunting after 3 misses. 95% of my kills are on the first shot, and frankly, never have used more than 2 shots to make a kill.

Lastly, if the only guarantee any accuracy criteria while using factory ammo its meaningless to me. I have never, in 69 years used anything but ammo I produced to hunt with, in fact the only factory ammo I have ever used is in my ccw, 45acp, and then only because I can't buy the bullet I prefer for personal protection against human threats!

But I have a Savage Axis, that I use a factory barrel that I purchased as a 243 win. That I opened up to 6mm AI along with a factory 30/06 barrel that came off my 6br Axis target rifle, and on the Blued Axis hunting rifle that I bedded to a laminated stock, will both shoot 3/8" 3 shot groups, including the first shot.

But I would never care what factory rifle with factory ammo would do, as it could never satisfy my expectancy for a useable hunting weapon.

 

[BoydAllen]

It's not easy, or a "piece of cake" but is it possible. I spend 2 to 3 days a week at the rifle range weather permitting. I've have seen just about everything you can imagine. Some really great shooting to some really poor shooting and everything in between.

Randy, a fellow shooter, routinely shoots 1 moa at 100 yards with his Savage 6.5 Creedmoor and factory ammo. The only modification he made was installing a Timmey Trigger.

I have seen others do it also, factory rifles with factory ammo. I wouldn't say that it's happen more often than not, but it happens enough to be noticeable, by me.

Keep in mind, even though the rifle and ammo may be capable, the shooter still has to execute good form to shoot that kind of group.

Years ago, when I was at the range, on the line, shooting, a fellow came up to me with a rifle and asked me to shoot it, saying that he thought that I would do a better job than he could. It was a factory, pre 64 model 70 in .30-06. It had had a trigger job but had not been glass bedded. The scope was something like a Bushnell variable with a maximum magnification of 8 or 8 1/2 power. The ammo was ordinary red and white box Federal that he had bought at one of the big box discount stores. My home made rest is still the best for stocks of that shape, and at the time it was all that I had, along with the least expensive Protektor bunny ear bag. I should have tried the trigger first, but I did not, and for that reason slightly pulled the first shot. Because of the caliber and barrel weight, I shot a three shot group and measured it with the dial calipers that I had in my range kit. It measured almost exactly one half inch. We were both pleased. A month or so later he brought a similar rifle in .270, that had the same lack of glass bedding, scope type, trigger job, with the same ammo. That time I did test the trigger and again shot a half inch three shot group. Needless to say I was impressed with those old Winchesters and what apparently could be done with ordinary Federal ammo.

 

[Bill Norris]

I don't understand anyone accepting 1 moa accuracy from a hunting centerfire rifle? I don't understand anyone worrying about a 5 shot group for any hunting gun. As 5 shots are only relevant in target shooting

I have not used a factory per say rifle for anything in decades! Even the finest benefit from a bedding job, and a recrown. For hunting my criteria is based on first shot 60% of my concern, and the first three are all I care about. I have never killed anything while in the field hunting after 3 misses. 95% of my kills are on the first shot, and frankly, never have used more than 2 shots to make a kill.

Lastly, if the only guarantee any accuracy criteria while using factory ammo its meaningless to me. I have never, in 69 years used anything but ammo I produced to hunt with, in fact the only factory ammo I have ever used is in my ccw, 45acp, and then only because I can't buy the bullet I prefer for personal protection against human threats!

But I have a Savage Axis, that I use a factory barrel that I purchased as a 243 win. That I opened up to 6mm AI along with a factory 30/06 barrel that came off my 6br Axis target rifle, and on the Blued Axis hunting rifle that I bedded to a laminated stock, will both shoot 3/8" 3 shot groups, including the first shot.

But I would never care what factory rifle with factory ammo would do, as it could never satisfy my expectancy for a useable hunting weapon.

My first concern with a Hunter is the cold bore shot. Although, I do enjoy shooting my Hunter 30BR off the bench and love the group size.

 

[dcali]

I bet he could sit there for days and not pay a dime. The bigger point he's making is true - go buy a remchester and some factory ammo, and you'll be lucky to have a 1 MOA shooter.

That said, it's not that uncommon to find *some* rifles with *some* ammo that can. Hardly a hoax.

 

[K22]

Years ago, when I was at the range, on the line, shooting, a fellow came up to me with a rifle and asked me to shoot it, saying that he thought that I would do a better job than he could. It was a factory, pre 64 model 70 in .30-06. It had had a trigger job but had not been glass bedded. The scope was something like a Bushnell variable with a maximum magnification of 8 or 8 1/2 power. The ammo was ordinary red and white box Federal that he had bought at one of the big box discount stores. My home made rest is still the best for stocks of that shape, and at the time it was all that I had, along with the least expensive Protektor bunny ear bag. I should have tried the trigger first, but I did not, and for that reason slightly pulled the first shot. Because of the caliber and barrel weight, I shot a three shot group and measured it with the dial calipers that I had in my range kit. It measured almost exactly one half inch. We were both pleased. A month or so later he brought a similar rifle in .270, that had the same lack of glass bedding, scope type, trigger job, with the same ammo. That time I did test the trigger and again shot a half inch three shot group. Needless to say I was impressed with those old Winchesters and what apparently could be done with ordinary Federal ammo.

My first center fire rifle was a new 243 Win, Model 70 but not the famous pre-64. If I remember correctly my father brought it for me in 1965. It had a Redfield scope, 3 x 9, which is those days was a top line scope. This was a dual-purpose hunting rifle meaning varmints (ground hogs and crows / predators (foxes in those days - $5 bounty) and eastern white tail.

I took many groundhogs, a fair number of foxes, a few crows and a few deer with this combo roaming the fields and woods of western PA. I got to be a fairly good field shooter due to my Uncle Bill's expert coaching. Things really got better once I started using a simple pair of wooden cross sticks as a shooting aid.

I didn't get into reloading until about 69 -70. Like everyone else in my area, I shot Remington ammo. 80 grains for varmints / predators and 100 grain for deer in the 243 Win. After I learn to shoot from my uncle Bill, an ex-marine, this combo would hold 1 moa at 100 yards off a front and rear rest IF I did my part. (My father used a 30-30 lever and was not a shooter, just an outstanding woodsman and small game and big game hunter. Uncle Bill was a shooter - he could routinely shoot dime to nickel size groups with his 270 off the bench, 130 grain bullets, those bronze tip ones.

And here's the real punch line, in those days everyone in my area used Hoppe's No. 9 and a bronze brush. With today's advanced stock designs, improved machining and manufacturing methods, improved cleaning practices, and significantly better factory ammo in premium grade, I don't think it's unreasonable to expect and obtain 1 moa from a factor rifle and ammo IF the shooter does his part.