Annealing in molten lead

[Oldbloke]

Blokes who hunt and perhaps shoot off 150 rounds a year simply won't spend heaps on annealers.
Those that shoot many hundreds need to keep that in mind.

 

[jthor]

Just don’t. Not lead, not salt.

If you want to do annealing on the cheap buy a flame annealer or the Firstburst Induction annealer.

 

[PhilC]

Just upgraded to an Ugly Annealer, will be more precise, safer, and much faster than "one at a time" in 1000º liquid salt.

 

[itchyTF]

Just don’t. Not lead, not salt.

If you want to do annealing on the cheap buy a flame annealer or the Firstburst Induction annealer.

I think you meant BurstFire.
This came up looking for FirstBurst - https://www.researchgate.net/figure...ction-and-fractionation-system-A_fig1_5616863

 

[M-61]

Lead fumes being dangerous at normal casting temps is an old wives tale.

“Yes, molten lead fumes are
highly harmfuland a major source of toxic lead exposure. Breathing them in causes lead to enter the bloodstream directly, potentially leading to severe nervous system damage, kidney failure, reduced fertility, and acute poisoning. Fumes are odorless, making them dangerous without proper protection.”
Above from the internet but JAMA and New England Journal of Medicine both concurred but far too lengthy to post.

 

[Coyotefurharvester]

Since I anneal a couple hundred (small batches) cases in a year, I'm staying with torch and socket. A dull red for a couple seconds. It's not difficult to maintain seating depth and tension for hunting/prairie dogs.

 

[Pete Wass]

AMP..
Yep, just write a check for about $1200 for something you don’t really need.

If you don't have Nursing Home Insurance, they own whatever money you have so if you need to go, give them your AMP as part of the first month's payment. That's what my plans are.

 

[Pete Wass]

Blokes who hunt and perhaps shoot off 150 rounds a year simply won't spend heaps on annealers.
Those that shoot many hundreds need to keep that in mind.

That's true enough. In that case I'd use to old torch and electric drill method. Temp sticks are available also to be able to tell if ya got to where you needed to be.

 

[jthor]

Annealing brass is done at a faint red color or about 1300 degrees F. Molten lead at a good pouring temperature is about 850 degrees F, not near hot enough to anneal brass.

Brass flash anneals, annealing in a few seconds, at 950. That’s where you get a very dim glow.

I think you meant BurstFire.
This came up looking for FirstBurst - https://www.researchgate.net/figure...ction-and-fractionation-system-A_fig1_5616863

correct early morning auto correct

 

[Webster]

Itchy, it's a quantum energy thing, explained nicely above.

Straightshooter, i feel your pain. Meh.

Temperature control is the point with the immersion annealing methods. reliable temp control.

BTDT and plan to do it again once i get the 6mm PPC brass all turned. Wound up dipping the necks in oil and that mostly worked but messy.

The goal for me is assuring no overheating to the point of rendering the necks dead-soft. My sourceS pointing to anneal, don't make the brass glow in the slightest, credibly describe what happens in the process. AMP IMO is vastly overpriced despite the convenience it brings to its perfect management of the whole deal. The much more affordable torch wheels are fine AFIAC once you get them calibrated (Tempilac!).

But I'm more comfortable with the hot liquid than an open flame outside of the fireplace. Like the lead particulates, I'm not afraid, confident in my precautions, and keep the fresh air flowing. Just prefer to avoid flames.

Bare fingers assure not annealing the casehead (eek!) but the burn injury risk is unacceptable for me. Already have and use two lead pots, so immersion wins. Four seconds at 750° F for .308 cases.

You can not anneal at 750F. Good info on this website you refuse to believe it.

 

[OldM1Shooter]

Answering a post about 750°F:

If that's Fahrenheit then it's too low and it'd be too slow. If that's Celsius it's a bit too hot, though it could work if the timing is very fast making it a little hard to control.

[snip]

Sorry, but comparing colors to new factory brass doesn't help at all since those colors have nothing to do about the grain structure of the brass.


I'd say that red you're seeing is a decent indicator in getting to what you want. . . just not that they look similar to "most new brass".


Reading this kind of nonsense is what I gets me frustrated over and over, which led me to decided to buy a tool to actually measure my brass hardness and experiment to see what temperatures for how long actually works to get the hardness that is in virgin factory brass. Otherwise, it's nothing more than guessing [snip]

Thanks for the insights. You appear to be implying that you have verified and probably quantified how much time at what temp is needed to adequately get the brass grain structure to where it's needed for case necks. Seems some still rely on 70-year old gun rag articles (repeated in print to the '90s as I recall) whose instructions would have us working to the same flawed standards that ruined some 1903 or 1906-ish Springfield receivers. Too soft brass here instead of too brittle steel back then.

BUT didn't you respond above to someone that 675°F would do? thread has sound mentions of time of exposure but I don't remember seeing any numbers. Huh??? I went with a 5-second count in 750°F lead (too hot for most of my molds and alloy) based on an article probably from Handloader in the 1990s. The author either was a metallurgist or had consulted with one IIRC. The rifle Iwas fighting with never grouped small enough for me to tell, though i could replicate FGMM performance with the better loads.

American Rifleman articles back when it was more tech-heavy stated that USGI rifle cases remain unpolished after annealing so seeing that color fade to blue-ish at the right spot can be part of the inspection that annealing was actually done. More than one source in my imprecise memories said that color change reliably shows that annealing happened but cannot reveal if it was overdone.

Many articles from the last 20 or so years report 750°F, sometimes stated at 4-5 seconds, does the job we want done. At least one included test firing and improved groups. Too many for me to discount.

Before dipping those case necks in lead, I sat down to calculate he mass and surface area intending to find a reasonable minimum dunk time. Couldn't remember enough from that chemistry class to get past looking up specific heats. But I believe that we can also rely on what the makers of the various annealing machines say. Experimental results (well-designed methods) have value.

Still willing to receive further light and knowledge. Especially quantified stuff.

Molten salt has GOT to be better than lead though. I just got none.

 

[Oldbloke]

All this talk about the correct temp. Just read the spec sheet. It's on the last page.

 

[Straightshooter1]

Answering a post about 750°F:

Thanks for the insights. You appear to be implying that you have verified and probably quantified how much time at what temp is needed to adequately get the brass grain structure to where it's needed for case necks. Seems some still rely on 70-year old gun rag articles (repeated in print to the '90s as I recall) whose instructions would have us working to the same flawed standards that ruined some 1903 or 1906-ish Springfield receivers. Too soft brass here instead of too brittle steel back then.

BUT didn't you respond above to someone that 675°F would do?

Hmmm??? That doesn't sound like me, unless it's from several years ago when I was following those many articles touting 650°F - 750°F. Back then, that's what was kinda frustrating to me in that those temperatures were highly spoken of but no that read data to have an idea what was really going on. That led me to seek out more in depth empirical studies.

thread has sound mentions of time of exposure but I don't remember seeing any numbers. Huh???

Often time of exposure, a key factor, is left out when I see suggestions as to a temperature to use. Like, "you should use 650°F tembleque" as a guide.

I went with a 5-second count in 750°F lead (too hot for most of my molds and alloy) based on an article probably from Handloader in the 1990s. The author either was a metallurgist or had consulted with one IIRC. The rifle Iwas fighting with never grouped small enough for me to tell, though i could replicate FGMM performance with the better loads.

When I first started annealing my brass, I was using the "flame color" method doing flame annealing. I had no idea what temperature I was actually using and like so many, I assumed it was working as it appeared ok. I just had not way of knowing except seeing what my results were over a long period of time.

American Rifleman articles back when it was more tech-heavy stated that USGI rifle cases remain unpolished after annealing so seeing that color fade to blue-ish at the right spot can be part of the inspection that annealing was actually done. More than one source in my imprecise memories said that color change reliably shows that annealing happened but cannot reveal if it was overdone.

Many articles from the last 20 or so years report 750°F, sometimes stated at 4-5 seconds, does the job we want done. At least one included test firing and improved groups. Too many for me to discount.

I know, as I've seen a lot of than too. Reporting 750°F for 4-5 seconds is problematic in that what does that really mean??? Is it that it's at that temperature for 4-5 seconds or the over all time subjected to the heat? It's like with flame annealing, the case enders the flame, but takes ~5 seconds before the neck reaches that temperature and once it reaches that temperature . . . how long should it be at that temperature???

Back in the fall of 2024 I acquired a tool to be able to actually measure some hardness and ran some experiments to see what it takes to get the kind of anneal we get on virgin brass. If you haven't already read it, here's a link: https://forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/flame-annealing-almost-perfect.4138833/

Before dipping those case necks in lead, I sat down to calculate he mass and surface area intending to find a reasonable minimum dunk time. Couldn't remember enough from that chemistry class to get past looking up specific heats. But I believe that we can also rely on what the makers of the various annealing machines say. Experimental results (well-designed methods) have value.

Still willing to receive further light and knowledge. Especially quantified stuff.

Molten salt has GOT to be better than lead though. I just got none.

I've collected several reports on studies about annealing cartridge brass, one gong back to the 1960's. I'm attaching a PDF file I think you might find of interest and here's what some that that looks like:


PS: I'm adding another pdf file, which is a good one but the file is too large, so I've included some of the pages you might find of interest too.

 

[OldM1Shooter]

Hmmm??? That doesn't sound like me, unless it's from several years ago when I was following those many articles touting 650°F - 750°F. Back then, that's what was kinda frustrating to me in that those temperatures were highly spoken of but no that read data to have an idea what was really going on. That led me to seek out more in depth empirical studies.


Often time of exposure, a key factor, is left out when I see suggestions as to a temperature to use. Like, "you should use 650°F tembleque" as a guide.


When I first started annealing my brass, I was using the "flame color" method doing flame annealing. I had no idea what temperature I was actually using and like so many, I assumed it was working as it appeared ok. I just had not way of knowing except seeing what my results were over a long period of time.


I know, as I've seen a lot of than too. Reporting 750°F for 4-5 seconds is problematic in that what does that really mean??? Is it that it's at that temperature for 4-5 seconds or the over all time subjected to the heat? It's like with flame annealing, the case enders the flame, but takes ~5 seconds before the neck reaches that temperature and once it reaches that temperature . . . how long should it be at that temperature???

Back in the fall of 2024 I acquired a tool to be able to actually measure some hardness and ran some experiments to see what it takes to get the kind of anneal we get on virgin brass. If you haven't already read it, here's a link: https://forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/flame-annealing-almost-perfect.4138833/



I've collected several reports on studies about annealing cartridge brass, one gong back to the 1960's. I'm attaching a PDF file I think you might find of interest and here's what some that that looks like:
View attachment 1753430

PS: I'm adding another pdf file, which is a good one but the file is too large, so I've included some of the pages you might find of interest too.

Thanks! I love the techie stuff. Thought my time statement was clear enough on duration of the dunk. I had run into something that led me to believe (dangerous, I know) that at human-ambient temps, a case neck and shoulder would reach a sufficient temperature immersed in 750F lead at something like three seconds, and the the sixth second (1st in the air) would finish it before the case lands in the water. Off to study again!

 

[OldM1Shooter]

Sorry, Straightshooter1, you were answering about 670 *C*. Damned Congresscritter idiots reversing course on the USA going metric! I was so READY!

 

[OldM1Shooter]

So my next question: Is the specter of over-annealing case necks false doctrine? Or is there some lesser degree where we want to be?

I have more than once considered annealing necks "all the way" just to assure they started out all the same.

Straightshooter1, I TOTALLY appreciate your use of that hardness tester to get at least ordinal scale data that has led to you finding the sweet spot to replicate the hardness of new Lapua brass. Donuts or bagels, and where do I send /em?

 

[Oldbloke]

I think this strongly indicates that it really isn't very technical. I'm sure a few have seen this before.

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[Straightshooter1]

So my next question: Is the specter of over-annealing case necks false doctrine?

No, I don't see that over-annealing case necks is false doctrine. "Over-annealing" is pretty ambiguous and needs to be defined just what that is.

Or is there some lesser degree where we want to be?

It's more like. . . being just right, the porridge is not too hot and not too cold. There's a range of hardness/softness (or grain recrystallization) that'll work just fine. Just like with trying to figure out the amount of "neck tension" (as it's generally understood) that works best for a particular load in a particular gun. There's that combination of tension, the neck pressing on the bullet, along with the other interference factor of friction. The softer the case necks, one may need more tension (they way we measure the difference between the bullet's OD and the necks ID) may be needed. Harder necks would require less "neck tension".

For sure, one of the ideas behind doing annealing is to extend the life of cases so they don't work harden over a short number of cycles of firing and sizing to where the necks split. And you don't want necks to be so soft that the bullets will move, like what can easily happen under a rifles recoil or during chambering from a mag. Whatever hardness can address these issues best or well enough can vary some. But whatever that hardness is, it's all still got to be of a consistent hardness for consistent performance. And we mustn't forget that different shooter can have very different performance objectives.

I've assumed that various cartridge manufacturers have done a lot of testing throughout the years to determine what's an optimal harness is for their cases. So . . . I simply go with that.

I have more than once considered annealing necks "all the way" just to assure they started out all the same.

Going "all the way" where the necks are dead soft can be very problematic, where they just won't hold onto the bullet and will easily slide in and out with very little pressure. Also, if the neck and some part of the shoulder is dead soft, it can mold itself to the chamber wall causing extraction issues.

Straightshooter1, I TOTALLY appreciate your use of that hardness tester to get at least ordinal scale data that has led to you finding the sweet spot to replicate the hardness of new Lapua brass. Donuts or bagels, and where do I send /em?

Since I got my hardness tester, I feel way more confident about knowing what I'm really doing when I anneal and size my cases. I'm not trying to put high octane gas in an engine that simply runs on low octane.

 

[Oldbloke]

From ugly annealer set up instructions.


"You can estimate the temperature by turning off the light and observing the glow
color. If you barely see the brass glowing dark red, it is about 450°C and it is
just ok. If you see it bright red. It is a bit too hot but still wont harm your brass
at all"

Soooo, they say adjust timing till you get a dark red. Then it's done.

Not very scientific is it. Simply estimate the temperature by colour. Exactly what blokes do using the gas torch and drill system.

Beginning to think some make it sound technical to justify wasting their hard earned.

 

[OldM1Shooter]

I just came back to withdraw that question about false doctrine. Some additional reading of the techy information and then letting my brain cells discuss amongst themselves has led me to believe that “over annealing” is rather difficult to ?accomplish? with any home hobbyist method. Without huge over-exposure in both temp and time. Like ruining the case head too.

I ain’t dunkin’ brass in lead no mo. RIP Phil Collins.

Just be CONSISTENT. 1800s machine age timing of flame exposure will do.