Annealing Brass

[22DASHER]

you need to anneal in low light (not dark) to a dark red color, for 4 to 6 seconds (not critical), and let it air cool... it is really that easy.

Is the 4 to 6 seconds for a dual torch or a single torch operation? If it is for a dual torch how much time do you recommend for a single torch?

Depends on your torch. I can anneal in about 4 seconds with a single torch. My other torch I can't even do it in 6, I don't use this one.

 

[CatShooter]

you need to anneal in low light (not dark) to a dark red color, for 4 to 6 seconds (not critical), and let it air cool... it is really that easy.

Is the 4 to 6 seconds for a dual torch or a single torch operation? If it is for a dual torch how much time do you recommend for a single torch?

4 to 6 seconds is for a single torch - my little torch is 6 seconds, my large one is 4-ish but you can just look at the necks, and see when they reach temperature... with two torches, you will get up to temperature faster, so keep it to 4 for speed, but it is not critical. Don't count time in 1/10ths, it will make you crazy.

 

[TC260]

like i asked on another forum, can someone who proclaims that the hand held propane torch method is destroying your brass please provide scientific DATA? perhaps some hardness numbers on brass annealed at various temperatures? how about something, anything other than personal non-quantified beliefs

I'm working on setting up a project to do just that for later this year. If it pans out it will be an actual scientific experiment with laboratory grade equipment and all the rest of it.

 

[jrm850]

https://www.ideals.illinois.edu/bitstream/handle/2142/4469/engineeringexperv00000i00359.pdf?sequence=3

This is a good read. There is support for Catshooter's theory of no 'ruined' state achieved at extremely high annealing temps, and some conflicting info that states there are constant changes in state throughout the annealing process and not only is time/temp critical for uniformity, the amount of cold working prior the annealing has an effect on grain size also. In essence, repeatability of annealing schedule plays more of an important part than we usually talk about around here in regards to getting consistent lot to lot results.

Lots of questions to weigh. Is the annealing process finished right after recrystalization or will we find more uniform results if we allow coalescence to occur from higher temps? Does the diluted surface energy of the larger grain sizes make the brass too malleable for our application?

I know, I know... This is the part where I am called, I think the term is anal compulsive, and told to just go heat brass and shoot. At least I took out the question regarding nucleation.

It would be easy to put the argument to bed if we could figure out a way to rockwell test the thin metal at the area of the case we are concerned with instead of at the base. According to NIST, ASTM etc, the minimum sample thickness should be 10x the thickness of the test indentation which won't happen unless the ball size of the tester is increased. As soon as I finish my load cell, I can do some bullet seat, pull, re-seat testing that might help put a comfort level on overheating. It won't be as accurate as the Gowe tester, but there will be some relative tangible info.

I try to listen to everyone's experiences and not to discount any of them without putting some effort into proving or disproving each. I think I read somewhere that Catshooter ran an ammo remanufacturing facility and has annealed several lifetimes of brass compared to me, but my nature is to go down my own path for fear that I will never pass the teacher. One of my favorite quotes that we have all heard many times is from Bernard de Chartres- "If I have seen farther than others, it is because I have stood on the backs of giants". The point is that I hope none of you take offense to me continuing to question what you know. If you teach me everything you know, then I can only be reach second place. Cheers!

 

[Ackley Kid]

Thanks Catshooter . Great info on the subject . My intent here is to LEARN as I have NO EXPERIENCE with annealing. I am shooting 284 win and after 3 firings or so my stud load turns into my dud load . ES/SD double ! I presume it is from the necks being worked . I am necking up Lapua brass on improved chamber so counting fire form 4 firings numbers go out the window ? I imagine the chronograph will indicate if I am doing this correctly , as I do not have hardness gauges ect . Changing the bushing one size seems to help bring the numbers back on the chronograph but..... I read that some anneal every reload , and others every 2 cycles or so . Achieving max brass life and consistant neck tension is my goal as shooting is more fun than preping , and fireforming , neck turning all over again ! Interesting on the colour change (blueing ) on various lots of brass good to know . Thanks again

 

[LHSmith]

"anneal necks until you just see an orange glow in a dimly lit room, never red -even in a pitch black room."

Your recommendation is completely WRONG, so it is obvious you do not anneal at all, and know nothing about annealing. You are a great source of information on this subject!!

Orange is 300 to 400 degrees HOTTER than dark red.

[

Well if you can misinterpret my instructions, then I guess so can others. So in the interest of clarity, I revised my above references post to read : "anneal necks until you just BEGIN to see a FAINT orange glow in a dimly lit room".....etc.
There are only 3 credible videos on case annealing on the net: 1/ Bench Source 2/ Giraud Tool Co. 3/ Darryl Holland Gunsmithing. The first two have the videos archived on this forum. In none of these videos do the case necks ever reach dark red.

 

[fguffey]

i was scared away from annealing for many years because of b.s. like that.

Many years? "Vanity, all is vanity". I got involved in a thread many years ago
covering 'ANNEALING'. The forum was socially dysfunctional. I thought there was an outside chance one or two individuals could benefit, I was wrong. At the time there was not a lot of help.

I took a few minutes to put together a few rules, I then made a few simple tools and started annealing with simple rules.

What has changed? Reloading forums are still socially dysfunctional, and all is still vanity.

F. Guffey

 

[dedogs]

Ackley Kid, As you can see the subject of annealing brass is a very hot topic on this forum.

I for one have to agree with CatSooter when he says it is a "Black-Art" There are so many variables involved in this "science" that is difficult for the average individual to come up with a positively definite answer to what is proper i.e. brand of brass, history of brass, flame temp. etc. etc. You should probably treat annealing with the same methods that go with working up a load. See what works best in your rifle. Try to set up a schedule for annealing, keep good notes and then make changes and see what works.
If you go back in the archives and search out the various threads on this subject you will find that CatShooter has annealed literally TONS of brass and to the best of my knowledge he hasn't blown up anyone. I for one believe that his experience is quite valid. You will find many here that disagree with him so you will have to make up your own mind. Hope this helps. dedogs

 

[CatShooter]

"anneal necks until you just see an orange glow in a dimly lit room, never red -even in a pitch black room."

Your recommendation is completely WRONG, so it is obvious you do not anneal at all, and know nothing about annealing. You are a great source of information on this subject!!

Orange is 300 to 400 degrees HOTTER than dark red.

[

Well if you can misinterpret my instructions, then I guess so can others. So in the interest of clarity, I revised my above references post to read : "anneal necks until you just BEGIN to see a FAINT orange glow in a dimly lit room".....etc.
There are only 3 credible videos on case annealing on the net: 1/ Bench Source 2/ Giraud Tool Co. 3/ Darryl Holland Gunsmithing. The first two have the videos archived on this forum. In none of these videos do the case necks ever reach dark red.

LCSmith... DUDE, you made it worse - you don't understand anything about it.

To heat ANYTHING that is metal to orange, it must, absolutely MUST get dark red first on the way to being orange.

And you think only three people know how to anneal... really???

 

[Ackley Kid]

Thanks dedogs . As you have stated there are many variables involved in this that will change results obtained . I guess I was nieve in thinking I would get a black and white answer on this . Brass thickness , heat source ,one torch vs two , time , method , .......... all play roles in the end product . Thanks to all for your posts on the matter .

 

[LHSmith]

LCSmith... DUDE, you made it worse - you don't understand anything about it.

To heat ANYTHING that is metal to orange, it must, absolutely MUST get dark red first on the way to being orange.

And you think only three people know how to anneal... really???

Well, Mr. Wizard, you remember him from the 50's, if you watch the video linked in post #1, you will clearly see that the neck first glows a faint orange (watch the neck ID, since the vid was shot in normal lighting), before going to glowing red, then glowing orange. If done in dim light the beginning color change is much more pronounced. If you can't see it, your eyesight is failing, perhaps from retina damage from the glow of the millions upon millions of brass you over-annealed in the last 8 decades.....and don't call me Dude.

 

[CatShooter]

LCSmith... DUDE, you made it worse - you don't understand anything about it.

To heat ANYTHING that is metal to orange, it must, absolutely MUST get dark red first on the way to being orange.

And you think only three people know how to anneal... really???

Well, Mr. Wizard, you remember him from the 50's, if you watch the video linked in post #1, you will clearly see that the neck first glows a faint orange (watch the neck ID, since the vid was shot in normal lighting), before going to glowing red, then glowing orange. If done in dim light the beginning color change is much more pronounced. If you can't see it, your eyesight is failing, perhaps from retina damage from the glow of the millions upon millions of brass you over-annealed in the last 8 decades.....and don't call me Dude.

Well, DUDE... (says Mr. Wizard), what goes around, comes around - You were the first to throw stones.


I watched that video - there was too much light to see the early stage - it is called "Dark red" because it is, well, it's "dark"!!

 

[Elwood]

"anneal necks until you just see an orange glow in a dimly lit room, never red -even in a pitch black room."

Your recommendation is completely WRONG, so it is obvious you do not anneal at all, and know nothing about annealing. You are a great source of information on this subject!!

Orange is 300 to 400 degrees HOTTER than dark red.

[

Well if you can misinterpret my instructions, then I guess so can others. So in the interest of clarity, I revised my above references post to read : "anneal necks until you just BEGIN to see a FAINT orange glow in a dimly lit room".....etc.
There are only 3 credible videos on case annealing on the net: 1/ Bench Source 2/ Giraud Tool Co. 3/ Darryl Holland Gunsmithing. The first two have the videos archived on this forum. In none of these videos do the case necks ever reach dark red.

The difference is that all of the videos are done in normal lighting conditions, you won't see the red in these lighting conditions.

Catshooter is right, it starts off a very dull cherry red and then turns orange before going nearly white. I use a Benchsource and heat until I see the slightest hint of cherry red inside the case neck in a dark room, as the case leaves the torches I look for the cherry red to be fading, which it does quite rapidly.

 

[LHSmith]

^^^^ This disagreement over the beginning color phase is proof of how important it is to use Tempilaq as a more reliable indicator of what the actual surface temperature is. However, using Tempilaq correctly, involves some trial and error methods to realize it's full benefits.We probably are in closer agreement than would first appear.....I am looking for the point at which the neck ID JUST begins a color transformation (I see a light orange tint). Since my technique uses a dimly lit room, I probably cannot see the cherry red phase like you do in a dark room.

 

[CatShooter]

Those that need to use Templaq should use it.

Others don't feel the need should avoid it - it is messy, and a pain in the tail to remove from the cases.

I see no disagreement here.

 

[LHSmith]

I see no disagreement here.

OH..........well then I'll just have to find another thread to start a catfight.

 

[Geronimo Jim]

Rats ........... world peace. Just when it was getting to be fun.

 

[dbduff]

So, as turning brass, just to learn the process, has rapidly expanded into "annealing, just to learn the process", what type of cost effective gear should a lost soul purchase to "just learn the process"?
D

 

[SShooterZ]

So, as turning brass, just to learn the process, has rapidly expanded into "annealing, just to learn the process", what type of cost effective gear should a lost soul purchase to "just learn the process"?
D

Cordless drill, deep socket with extension to mount in drill, disposable propane torch. GO!
Oh, and make sure you can count out to 6-10 seconds in your head.

 

[CatShooter]

So, as turning brass, just to learn the process, has rapidly expanded into "annealing, just to learn the process", what type of cost effective gear should a lost soul purchase to "just learn the process"?
D

Oh, and make sure you can count out to 6-10 seconds in your head.

Oh, skat... I knew I was doing something wrong