Hot load, flyers or tuner

[quest450]

I wonder if a set of flags and a tuner could've solved your inconsistency in annealing

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Sure if you look at the moa and not the 10x distance. If all you know is tuning a ppc or 30 br, theres a whole nother world out there of analness. You dont know what you dont know.

I did in fact mention MOA but you missed my point, which is in regard to wind flags. Tuning without them is an area that potentially leaves a lot on the table. If ya don't know why a shot(s) open up a group, well, ya don't know what ya don't know. Was it wind, was it tune, do you skip over a nice load because the group wasn't what ya look for? Would flags at least tell you why a shot came out and did it go where it should based on the condition? Flags tell ya that.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

I did in fact mention MOA but you missed my point, which is in regard to wind flags. Tuning without them is an area that potentially leaves a lot on the table. If ya don't know why a shot(s) open up a group, well, ya don't know what ya don't know. Was it wind, was it tune, do you skip over a nice load because the group wasn't what ya look for? Would flags at least tell you why a shot came out and did it go where it should based on the condition? Flags tell ya that.

You can set as many flags as you want at 1k and you still wont know. You have to rely on the tune and use your experience to judge if it was tune or not. We look at trends and the info available to us. Do most of your groups show a similar lost shot, did anyone else in the relay loose a shot in the same direction? When I was scoring at deep creek I could easily tell if it was a condition or the gun. Dont assume there are no flags set, but flags at 1k might give you an idea of 10-20% of whats happening. Its a tuning game for the most part, not a flag reading game. I brought my Smiley flags to deep creek so do the other guys, cant see them past 300. And sure as hell Im not going to slow down in a group to look at them. At my hone range in Dillon I permanently installed wind socks to see them farther. But you dont look at them when its time to go. Its obvious the guys that dont shoot 1k, always talking flags. Bring them out to a 1k match and do like you do at short range. I have. Then you will see why its just not the same. And to ad on a different topic, it takes time to learn to read flags. So every new guy that asks about his load for his 6.5 creedmoor gets asked if hes got wind flags. It wouldnt matter if he did, he doesnt know how to read them. Guys take for granted that you just set flags and you will know how to read them without practice. Thats a skill by itself.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

You can set as many flags as you want at 1k and you still wont know. You have to rely on the tune and use your experience to judge if it was tune or not. We look at trends and the info available to us. Do most of your groups show a similar lost shot, did anyone else in the relay loose a shot in the same direction? When I was scoring at deep creek I could easily tell if it was a condition or the gun. Dont assume there are no flags set, but flags at 1k might give you an idea of 10-20% of whats happening. Its a tuning game for the most part, not a flag reading game. I brought my Smiley flags to deep creek so do the other guys, cant see them past 300. And sure as hell Im not going to slow down in a group to look at them. At my hone range in Dillon I permanently installed wind socks to see them farther. But you dont look at them when its time to go. Its obvious the guys that dont shoot 1k, always talking flags. Bring them out to a 1k match and do like you do at short range. I have. Then you will see why its just not the same.

You seem upset. Again, my post was about tuning without flags. But apparently, you still don't understand. Yes, you SHOULD be able to tell if a shot goes where it should based on conditions. But apparently, you can see conditions without flags. That's great if ya can But it also gets to exactly why I said that winning LR groups can be last place in SR(moa, again). MOA is MOA. The difference is wind reading, mostly. The best BC will never negate wind reading. Neither will tune.
Sorry I upset you. Didn't Bart use flags at LR?
I wonder if he tuned without them.
Now stop being condescending. You have no idea how much testing I've done or at what distances just because I compete at SR.

When we first discussed tuners, you made it very clear that you didn't need instruction from me. Its no wonder you're not a tuner user. Same thing here my friend. You had no interest in hearing anything I tried to say then either.

 

[TRSR8]

Isn’t it interesting, over time/forums, nobody seems to understand but Mike.

 

[WSnyder]

You seem upset.

I certainly didn’t read it that way (him being upset). I read it as he was just explaining his perspective on wind, wind flags and tuning at 1K is all.

I do see his point though. There’s so much ground to cover at that distance that it is really hard to cover it all with flags for the reasons he stated. It’s not the same as short range, just too much distance and too much going on. Some days with poor conditions at distance it’s just not worth testing (IMO), where on the same day at short range with flags you’d be fine.

 

[ridgeway]

I didn't see it that way either(being upset)...Alex is spot on in LR. In the many years of LR BR, I have yet to see a guy pick them using flags. The target and aggs will show your tune. And by all means, don't twist my words around...flags are good and a necessary tool.

 

[SpencerC87]

Can an ignition related flyer also show up in a spit shot out left or right? If not, what would likely cause one that is not wind related?

 

[Ccrider]

seating depth
or
wrong bullet (using factory bullets and not sorting them closely enough)

We will see. I am using custom bullets and I have tested seating depth pretty thoroughly. I think it’s something else bit have not had time to prove it out.

 

[Ccrider]

Can an ignition related flyer also show up in a spit shot out left or right? If not, what would likely cause one that is not wind related?

Look at post 8 and 13 above for your answer. @ridgeway what was the problem with your ignition and how was it corrected?

 

[ridgeway]

Look at post 8 and 13 above for your answer. @ridgeway what was the problem with your ignition and how was it corrected?

I put alot of time and work in my action with modifications to bolt, action, cocking piece(one of Alex's) and pin for more pinfall and timing. I even made a new pin thats set up in one of my fire control assemblys to test some more.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

You seem upset. Again, my post was about tuning without flags. But apparently, you still don't understand. Yes, you SHOULD be able to tell if a shot goes where it should based on conditions. But apparently, you can see conditions without flags. That's great if ya can But it also gets to exactly why I said that winning LR groups can be last place in SR(moa, again). MOA is MOA. The difference is wind reading, mostly. The best BC will never negate wind reading. Neither will tune.
Sorry I upset you. Didn't Bart use flags at LR?
I wonder if he tuned without them.
Now stop being condescending. You have no idea how much testing I've done or at what distances just because I compete at SR.

When we first discussed tuners, you made it very clear that you didn't need instruction from me. Its no wonder you're not a tuner user. Same thing here my friend. You had no interest in hearing anything I tried to say then either.

Im far from upset. I don't take this internet stuff serious, whens the last time you saw me blow up and start calling names? I just laugh. You should too.
I refrain from posting opinions about short range because I realize its not my game. After going to the tack driver and playing a little bit in that world I see many similarities. But theres a different way to play the games.
I dont want your instruction because I disagree with much of it. Thats ok. Its not personal.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

Can an ignition related flyer also show up in a spit shot out left or right? If not, what would likely cause one that is not wind related?

Not usually but I wouldnt say never. Bedding would be my first guess.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

There’s so much ground to cover at that distance that it is really hard to cover it all with flags for the reasons he stated. It’s not the same as short range, just too much distance and too much going on. Some days with poor conditions at distance it’s just not worth testing (IMO), where on the same day at short range with flags you’d be fine.

I agree with this, but how do you know a condition that will hold and when to start your group? Why would flags not be helpful in seeing that, assuming you have them in the bottom of the scope?

I'm not proposing to try to pick your way through conditions except as a last resort in LR. I think the faster you can get them sent, the better...but that's because of the wind, right? You're trying to get them off in a condition before it changes. So, how do I see that condition that holds or not without flags? I'm talking about BEFORE I start the record, hopefully.

I look for patterns and tendencies in wind at all yardages. In SR I can pick when I have to and would only do that in LR if I see a big switch in the middle of my string that I know is a killer. Stopping would be a kiss of death but is it worse than shooting in a seen hard reversal? Would it really be advisable to keep shooting in a known hard switch? In an ideal world, I guess it'd be nice to be able to take my time with each shot but I think we all know that seldom works out well, in sr or lr. If given the choice, I'll take running them over picking at LR though, for sure.

Again though, what about tuning? I've always felt like tuning without flags is a waste of time and components unless you can see the predominant condition as well as , as much as possible that happens down range that affects the group shape, by some other means that's better. At LR, I'm mostly looking for a reliable condition. Same with short but I can pick through better at short range if needed than I can at LR. I use mirage too when I can but I find mirage best when it agrees with other wind indicators vs alone.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

I dont want your instruction because I disagree with much of it. Thats ok. Its not personal.

As far as I know, I'm the only tuner maker that offers detailed instructions, Alex. I'm not sure what you disagree with about my instructions that you refused to hear, but there are literally a few thousand shooters out there and on this very site that send me targets for review and very, very few have had anything negative to say after shooting the test and following my instructions. That's way beyond luck or coincidence. It's fine that you disagree about whatever it is you disagree about, but the proof is in the puddin' and the results. You just didn't wanna hear it and so, you have never followed the way I request all customers to go about testing my tuner. IOW, ya don't know what ya don't know...yet. Apparently and according to your own words in your last post...you already knew more than the man who designed the tuner and the test for it. Good on ya man! Just remember, I've been around since your zfastmalibu days. At least back then, you were trying to learn. Now, it seems you think you already know it all. You've come a long way since those days but...
Ya just shouldn't knock a product when you're not even willing to use it per the mfg's offered instructions. Yet, that's exactly what you do. It's just that simple and it generally should apply to any product. I remember you saying that you thread everything to "zero clearance" too! I told ya then what that is called...a galled thread. Anyone with a Machinery's Handbook knows that's NOT proper machining if they read it a bit. But you wanted to argue about even that and didn't wanna hear anything from lowly me about machining 101 level stuff. Instead, you acted as though your lack of knowledge was a badge of honor. Same with tuners Alex. Same again. Good luck and happy New Year. I've seen the things I need to see now, and then. It's a shame all those zfast posts on BRC are lost because it would show how far you've come since. You were as lost as you could be and you've come a long way. That's a compliment. Kudos man! It's not personal.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

As far as I know, I'm the only tuner maker that offers detailed instructions, Alex. I'm not sure what you disagree with about my instructions but there are literally a few thousand shooters out there and on this very site that send me targets for review and very, very few have had anything negative to say after shooting the test and following my instructions. That's way beyond luck or coincidence. It's fine that you disagree about whatever it is you disagree about, but the proof is in the puddin' and the results. You just didn't wanna hear it and so, you have never followed the way I request all customers to go about testing my tuner. IOW, ya don't know what ya don't know...yet. Apparently and according to your own words in your last post...you already knew more than the man who designed the tuner and the test for it. Good on ya man! Just remember, I've been around since your zfastmalibu days. At least back then, you were trying to learn. Now, it seems you think you already know it all. You've come a long way since those days but...
Ya just shouldn't knock a product when you're not even willing to use it per the mfg's offered instructions. Yet, that's exactly what you do. It's just that simple and it generally should apply to any product. I remember you saying that you thread everything to "zero clearance" too! I told ya then what that is called...a galled thread. Anyone with a Machinery's Handbook knows that's NOT proper machining if they read it a bit. But you wanted to argue about even that and didn't wanna hear anything from lowly me about machining 101 level stuff. Instead, you acted as though your lack of knowledge was a badge of honor. Same with tuners Alex. Same again. Good luck and happy New Year. I've seen the things I need to see now, and then. It's a shame all those zfast posts on BRC are lost because it would show how far you've come since. You were as lost as you could be and you've come a long way. That's a compliment. Kudos man! It's not personal.

You seem upset.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

You seem upset.

Nah, I'm over it now and feel much better.

 

[TRSR8]

Nah, I'm over it now and feel much better.

 

[quest450]

another dumpster fire thread caused by the thin skinned lunatic

 

[quest450]

Getting back on track here are few examples of flyers that Alex Wheeler was able to cure for me by simply changing the firing pin spring, I knew that barrel was trying really hard to shoot small and it eventually did
These groups were shot at 600 yards with ZERO flags